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Old 08-18-2022, 08:15 AM   #11
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Cutting through a door

Another point to consider is whether he is locked into a room where the door is barred, or in a room where the door being barred is the only thing keeping him in the room,. If he is in a locked room as well, unbarring the door does nothing about the lock, and the lock will be substantial, even if not complex (and, depending on the time period, might be made of wood instead of meta)l.

As far as the bar goes, even if he makes his hole in the door, he may be unable to unbar the door. While the brackets holding the bar in place are often portrayed as open at the top, allowing the bar to be lifted off the brackets, that wasn't always the case. Sometimes, the brackets closed over the bar at the top as well and were opened by sliding the bar to the side. There are medieval examples of such barring being used, as well as more elaborate systems where the bar was slid from a distance using a lever device and the bar locked with interlocking pins near the lever, so that the bar remained immovable at the doorway even if the door was somehow penetrated. You may not want to use those techniques on this character, but you may want to note their existence for use at some time in the future.
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Old 08-18-2022, 08:49 AM   #12
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Default Re: Cutting through a door

GURPS level of resolution is too gross to account for fractional points of damage accumulating slowly over lengthy time-frames. I would treat this as more of a Woodworking or Carpentry task (with improvised tools).
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Old 08-18-2022, 09:05 AM   #13
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Default Re: Cutting through a door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
GURPS level of resolution is too gross to account for fractional points of damage accumulating slowly over lengthy time-frames. I would treat this as more of a Woodworking or Carpentry task (with improvised tools).
I had not thought of using those. Good idea.
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Old 08-18-2022, 09:23 AM   #14
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Default Re: Cutting through a door

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Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
Snapping the blade is another risk, if he try to go too fast/too strong.
Probably not. Large knife = bowie knife or some such. It wouldn't be easy for STR 7 -- which is, after all, the strength of a seven-year-old human -- to break a heavy, thick knife like that on purpose.

Also, re: the need to sharpen the knife: basically, the way the character will use it will dull the edge fairly fast. But putting an edge back onto it isn't all that hard: a minute, no more. Given that the door was described as having a stone edge, and the room presumably has stone walls or a stone floor, AND with the metal bands on the door, there are ample surfaces for meatball sharpening. It will need doing every half hour or less, but it won't materially add to the time necessary to the task.

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
GURPS level of resolution is too gross to account for fractional points of damage accumulating slowly over lengthy time-frames. I would treat this as more of a Woodworking or Carpentry task (with improvised tools).
... and with a VERY large bonus for it being such a simple task. This isn't conceptually hard, after all: take knife, hack hole in door, neatness and craftsmanship not a factor, try not to slip and lop off a finger while doing so.
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Old 08-18-2022, 09:41 AM   #15
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: Cutting through a door

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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
Probably not. Large knife = bowie knife or some such.
Eh, smaller bowies would make up the larger end of the "Large Knife" spectrum. A Ks-bar military knife is probably the middle of that spectrum. Ka-bars are what fits closest to the HT rule about 1/3rd of the listed weight being the sheath (10 and a fraction ounces of knife, 5 and a fraction ounces of sheath).

The only type of knife we have specifically labelled as a "large knife" is the Sykes-Fairburn commando knife. That'd be on the lower side of average for medieval-style "daggers". What Gurps calls a "dagger" would be a sgain dhu or "boot knife".
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Old 08-18-2022, 05:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: Cutting through a door

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I would treat this as more of a Woodworking or Carpentry task (with improvised tools).
This would be a good way to model skill use, but not rate of material removal.

Carpentry would definitely be useful because you'd know how the door is put together, allowing you to attack its weak points.

Forced Entry would also be a good choice, since it's specifically designed to allow skill-based attempt to break stuff, rather than just using ST.

Perhaps Forced Entry with Carpentry as a Complementary skill.
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Old 08-19-2022, 10:50 AM   #17
SID
 
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Default Re: Cutting through a door

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Originally Posted by SionEwig View Post
...The situation - a character is locked in a room... The question - about how long should this take? Continuous work, I'll figure in rest periods.
From the Object Hit Points Table (B558-B559), a 2-inch-thick wooden door has 2 DR and 29 HP, it says that repeated hits to the same spot make its DR semi-ablative so…

Thinking out of the box (LOL), you could declare an all-out-attack strong and add +2 to damage, it’d be like rolling 1d6-3 IMP if you don’t “abrade” the DR.

Large knives are usually wider than 1 inch, but assuming 1 inch wide, if all attacks succeed and if the least damage you do is 60 HP, then you can penetrate the door by 2 inches per minute (hopefully you’ll avoid the iron bands and the stone). This means you could punch a hole with a perimeter of 6 inches in 3 minutes at the cost of 3 FP (because one minute of combat requires 1 FP IIRC).

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GURPS level of resolution is too gross to account for fractional points of damage accumulating slowly over lengthy time-frames...
But at least in regards of DR, B559: "Repeated impaling, piercing, and large piercing attacks against the same small spot (an area with SM 0 or less) lower DR at that specific point as if it were semi-ablative". It won't drop below 1 DR for wood, but it helps.
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Old 08-20-2022, 02:05 PM   #18
Plane
 
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Default Re: Cutting through a door

While we're on this, have we figured out crunch-wise why the swing-cutting of an Axe should make it easier to "here's Johnny" your way through a wooden door than the swing-cutting of a sword?

I know realistically it's because the tip will hit the door before the edge can, making it impossible to swing-cut with a straight sword (a highly curved sword might manage it but it still seems inferior to an axe) but I don't know which if any combat rules acknowledge this distinction.

Something to do with close-quarters combat maybe?

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
GURPS level of resolution is too gross to account for fractional points of damage accumulating slowly over lengthy time-frames.
I always figured changing thrust to "1d x striking ST ÷10" would do the job
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Old 08-22-2022, 01:13 AM   #19
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Default Re: Cutting through a door

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While we're on this, have we figured out crunch-wise why the swing-cutting of an Axe should make it easier to "here's Johnny" your way through a wooden door than the swing-cutting of a sword?
The "crunch" is the 0U Parry of an Axe or Two-Handed Axe and its relative damage bonus compared to a sword of similar weight and length. Because the weapon is unbalanced (with most of the weapon's mass "behind" the cutting edge at the weapon's "percussion point" rather than parallel to it), it allows most of a blow's force to be concentrated into a smaller area.

You can chop through wood using a sword, but because most of the sword's mass is above or below the "percussion point" where the blade does maximum damage from a swing, you're not maximizing the impact from each blow. It's the difference between bashing something with your forearm vs. bashing it with the side of your fist.

If you wanted to be "extra crunchy," you could define damage from weapons like axes as being "chopping" in that they mostly do cutting damage, but get a trivially better damage divisor vs. rigid materials and might do slightly more blunt trauma through rigid DR.

Unbalanced crushing weapons, like hammers and mauls get a similar benefit vs. more linear weapons like batons or staffs. The same idea applies - you're putting most of the weapon's mass directly behind the weapon's percussion point to maximize impact, but at the cost of making it clumsier to use.

Note that tools designed to cut relatively thin materials, like paper cutters and metal brakes are sword-shaped, sometimes even with a slightly curved blade that maximizes shearing efficiency. That maximizes the length of material you can shear with one stroke. Handy if you want to open up ghastly wounds in unarmored flesh or cleanly cut a 6-foot wide piece of cloth with one stroke.
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Old 08-22-2022, 06:02 PM   #20
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Default Re: Cutting through a door

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
The "crunch" is the 0U Parry of an Axe or Two-Handed Axe and its relative damage bonus compared to a sword of similar weight and length. Because the weapon is unbalanced (with most of the weapon's mass "behind" the cutting edge at the weapon's "percussion point" rather than parallel to it), it allows most of a blow's force to be concentrated into a smaller area.

You can chop through wood using a sword, but because most of the sword's mass is above or below the "percussion point" where the blade does maximum damage from a swing, you're not maximizing the impact from each blow. It's the difference between bashing something with your forearm vs. bashing it with the side of your fist.
great axe weighs 8 and does sw+3, the same as greatswords which only weigh 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
If you wanted to be "extra crunchy," you could define damage from weapons like axes as being "chopping" in that they mostly do cutting damage, but get a trivially better damage divisor vs. rigid materials and might do slightly more blunt trauma through rigid DR.

Unbalanced crushing weapons, like hammers and mauls get a similar benefit vs. more linear weapons like batons or staffs
Sounds like something that could solve the Here'sJohnny dilemma.

Maybe swords could also deliver more force with less change of breakag if they hit at shorter than maximal reaches?

At a certain point you're basically "tip-slashing" a door when you swing an impaling weapon to try and cut it, which should probably force you into doing merely thrust-cutting and with a high chance of snapping off the tip of the sword in the door if it's a straightsword (could be avoided with curved swords, though I'd imagine a katana could get stuck in the wood like an axe)
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