[MA] Wrestling with Weapons

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Maybe just go with Armed Grapple as a technique from Grappling skills, but limit it to the lower of Armed Grapple and Weapon Skill.

So a Staff-20 person needs to invest loads and loads of points into Wrestling before being able to efficiently grab someone with the archetypical staff choke?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

So a Staff-20 person needs to invest loads and loads of points into Wrestling before being able to efficiently grab someone with the archetypical staff choke?

Perhaps not.

But I think that if he wanted to throw a person that he had in that staff choke to the ground, bear him down or pin him against a wall; it wouldn't be unrealistic that it would matter how good he was at grappling in general.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

So a Staff-20 person needs to invest loads and loads of points into Wrestling before being able to efficiently grab someone with the archetypical staff choke?

Yes.

If you ONLY want to do a choke, buy the Perk that allows that particular Technique to default from Staff. Technique Adaption, I believe.

But if you want to do locks, throws, sweeps, trips, chokes, with the Staff, then you need to study the motions that allow you to use that pole as a lever to control rather than a bashing item, and that's a separate body of knowledge.

Look, one point gives you DX-1 in Wrestling, or DX-2 in Judo. Your hypothetical DX12, DX+8 Staff guy (Staff 20) is awesome at bashing people, but extending all of that to grappling skills? Don't think so.

I might change my answer, though, as follows:

Armed Grapple is a technique defaulting to Weapon Skill-6, max value Weapon Skill. But you use the LOWER of Armed Grapple or Wrestling to execute grappling moves with your weapon.

So Staff-20 guy defaults to Armed Grapple-14, and if he's DX12, 1 point gives Wrestling-11 or Judo-10. If he wants to lock someone up, he rolls vs (say) 11. If he wants to be good enough to meet or exceed his inherent skill with his staff, he needs to buy up Wrestling.

Just because you're a bash-master doesn't mean you can use a stick for grappling.

[Verjigorm]

I think Doug hits it on the head: using a baton to bash in heads is far different from using one to perform armlocks, chokes and similar grappling moves.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I think Doug hits it on the head: using a baton to bash in heads is far different from using one to perform armlocks, chokes and similar grappling moves.

On the other hand, using a baton to simulate fencing moves is far different from using one in police-approved fashion.

Yet both are Shortsword skill.

GURPS skills are very, very broad. Many things that we recognise as extremely different are not another skill, they are another style and/or familiarities.

Many staff and baton styles stress using them for grappling as much as they stress using them for bashing. In the rules as they stand, this is handled by the Armed Grappling technique.

In principle, I think that this is okay. Certainly, policemen don't learn much fencing with their batons, but they all learn how to use them while grappling.

That being said, I think that grappling skill carries over to some extent, regardless of the lever you happen to be using. So I'm fine with rolling to hit against Armed Grapple (as that is mostly a function of weapon skill), but rolling against grappling skill when trying to apply a takedown, change grips, etc.

[Icelander]

This thread has yielded a crop of interesting suggestions for house rules, which is nice, but I can't help feeling that before I house rule, I should at least attempt to understand how the authors meant the rules to be interpreted.

So, what did the authors of GURPS Martial Arts intend to be the rule for Armed Grapple? Do you use your skill level with the weapon for takedowns, shifting grip, pins, etc.? Your Armed Grapple skill level? Or any grappling skill?

[Danukian]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yes.

If you ONLY want to do a choke, buy the Perk that allows that particular Technique to default from Staff. Technique Adaption, I believe.

But if you want to do locks, throws, sweeps, trips, chokes, with the Staff, then you need to study the motions that allow you to use that pole as a lever to control rather than a bashing item, and that's a separate body of knowledge.

Look, one point gives you DX-1 in Wrestling, or DX-2 in Judo. Your hypothetical DX12, DX+8 Staff guy (Staff 20) is awesome at bashing people, but extending all of that to grappling skills? Don't think so.

I might change my answer, though, as follows:

Armed Grapple is a technique defaulting to Weapon Skill-6, max value Weapon Skill. But you use the LOWER of Armed Grapple or Wrestling to execute grappling moves with your weapon.

So Staff-20 guy defaults to Armed Grapple-14, and if he's DX12, 1 point gives Wrestling-11 or Judo-10. If he wants to lock someone up, he rolls vs (say) 11. If he wants to be good enough to meet or exceed his inherent skill with his staff, he needs to buy up Wrestling.

Just because you're a bash-master doesn't mean you can use a stick for grappling.

I would have to put this under the realm of a Perk or a Technique, after all - what were all those THOUSANDS of hours of training to reach Staff 20 teaching you? to aim well? After 16, that's kinda irrelevant, don't you think? Armed Grappling should be part of the basic fundamental aspects of many arts, staff being one of them - but I don't think it should be penalized to the LOWER of Wrestling/Judo or Weapon Skill, it completely defeats the purpose of the 20 skill.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Danukian

I would have to put this under the realm of a Perk or a Technique, after all - what were all those THOUSANDS of hours of training to reach Staff 20 teaching you? to aim well? After 16, that's kinda irrelevant, don't you think?

Er, no, that's not irrelevant at all. Attack rolls and parries are what you get high weapon skill to be good at, and it's really not hard to find reasons to want, say, weapon skill 30 (aiming for armor gaps, deceptive -3, rolling at 16).

Against opponents with realistic defenses, in realistic fighting conditions, there's some limit to how much weapon skill is useful for its core function. But it's more like 40 than 16.

And if you want to be great at grappling, and think that weapon skill past 16 is a waste of time, spend the 16 points on grappling skill instead.

[Danukian]

I understand WHY you want I weapon skill over 16, my point was 16+ is useful because all the defenses and techniques default to it - I was saying if Skill 20 only represented "bashing", it was useless.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Danukian

I understand WHY you want I weapon skill over 16, my point was 16+ is useful because all the defenses and techniques default to it - I was saying if Skill 20 only represented "bashing", it was useless.

And I was pointing out how you should want such a high skill simply for 'bashing' better. For instance, skill 40 would let you aim for eyeslits (-9?) while thoroughly defeating the retreating dodge of a competent foe with a medium shield (dodge ~14). That is, it will let you almost casually slaughter knights with a rapier. You can't do that sort of thing with skill 16, but it's just an application of the core attack functionality.