Statting heroes from the Trojan War?

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Anders

He was kind of stupid that way.

Pride does make people do stupid things... like brag. ;)

[DanHoward]

Diomedes is the only real man. The rest of them are preppy cry babies.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Diomedes is the only real man. The rest of them are preppy cry babies.

To my mind, there's a serious case for Hector being the most admirable character in the Iliad, certainly more so than either Achilles or Agamemnon.

[Anders]

Have you read Colleen McCullough's Songs of Troy? That's an excellent retelling of the story of the Trojan War which I highly recommend.

Spoiler:  

In it, the whole "Wrath of Achilles" is a ruse to lure out the Trojans before an allied army arrives in spring. Without the threat of the Myrmidons, Hector is tricked into overextending his forces and when Achilles returns to the field Hector takes losses he can't afford.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by whswhs

To my mind, there's a serious case for Hector being the most admirable character in the Iliad, certainly more so than either Achilles or Agamemnon.

Speaking of Achilles, what does the UCMJ say is the penalty for desertion in the face of the enemy?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Speaking of Achilles, what does the UCMJ say is the penalty for desertion in the face of the enemy?

I have no idea. But applying it to the Trojan War seems like an anachronism.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I have no idea. But applying it to the Trojan War seems like an anachronism.

I can just see it in a court-martial,"Your honor, my client deserted because he was mad at the commander for taking the woman he wanted to kidnap."

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I can just see it in a court-martial,"Your honor, my client deserted because he was mad at the commander for taking the woman he wanted to kidnap."

Correction: the woman he had kidnapped. :)

As it is, though, Achilles didn't exactly desert; they knew where he was the entire time he refused to fight: on his ship or in his tent. He was the general of his own troops who he had brought with him (50 ships full of troops, according to The Iliad), not beholden to Agamemnon or Menelaus except through promises, promises which Agamemnon had broken. It'd be more like the head Russian general refusing an order from Ike during WWII; Ike could grumble about it, but he really couldn't do a thing without losing coordination efforts between the various Allied forces.

Remember, the forces arrayed both for and against Troy were loose coalitions, not a unified army. Neither side was anywhere near united under a single banner; it was Sparta (Menelaus) allied with Syracuse (Odysseus) allied with the Myrmidons (Achilles) allied with the etc.; and Troy allied with the Amazons allied with various Hittite cities allied with another etc.

So given that, Achilles was treating Agamemnon as an equal, as was his right, not as his superior. Agamemnon clearly thought differently, but egos were big on all sides of the conflict.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Speaking of Achilles, what does the UCMJ say is the penalty for desertion in the face of the enemy?

Originally Posted by whswhs

I have no idea. But applying it to the Trojan War seems like an anachronism.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I can just see it in a court-martial,"Your honor, my client deserted because he was mad at the commander for taking the woman he wanted to kidnap."

Originally Posted by Phantasm

As it is, though, Achilles didn't exactly desert; they knew where he was the entire time he refused to fight: on his ship or in his tent. He was the general of his own troops who he had brought with him (50 ships full of troops, according to The Iliad), not beholden to Agamemnon or Menelaus except through promises, promises which Agamemnon had broken. It'd be more like the head Russian general refusing an order from Ike during WWII; Ike could grumble about it, but he really couldn't do a thing without losing coordination efforts between the various Allied forces.

Remember, the forces arrayed both for and against Troy were loose coalitions, not a unified army. Neither side was anywhere near united under a single banner; it was Sparta (Menelaus) allied with Syracuse (Odysseus) allied with the Myrmidons (Achilles) allied with the etc.; and Troy allied with the Amazons allied with various Hittite cities allied with another etc.

So given that, Achilles was treating Agamemnon as an equal, as was his right, not as his superior. Agamemnon clearly thought differently, but egos were big on all sides of the conflict.

It's comparable to an Afghan warlord of the Northern Alliance refusing an 'order' from a US general. There's no question of court martial or disciplinary proceedings, because getting cooperation at all is a question of diplomacy, not chain-of-command.

The modern world, somewhere in our globe, features fairly exact analogues to most military/political situations of ancient Greence. The hegemony of Agamemnon is no exception.

[DanHoward]

Yep. Achilles didn't desert, he "withdrew his support". And Hektor ran away when he finally came to face Achilles.