Questions about hitboxes, impaling weapons, rigid armor, and hit chances

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

Hitting the head, even if only a single point of damage gets through, forces a HT-10 roll for Knockdown and possible stunning...

...You club someone in the face and they get -5 to the HT roll!

The rest of your post is spot on, but I should note with these two, the extra penalty for Knockdown only applies on a Major Wound (injury over 50% of HP). However, any hit that causes any degree of Shock (or would have, if the character has High Pain Threshold), causes a straight roll against HT to avoid knockdown/stunning, which is still quite useful.

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The rest of your post is spot on, but I should note with these two, the extra penalty for Knockdown only applies on a Major Wound (injury over 50% of HP). However, any hit that causes any degree of Shock (or would have, if the character has High Pain Threshold), causes a straight roll against HT to avoid knockdown/stunning, which is still quite useful.

Edit:

Oh, I see what you mean, I might have misworded something, but yeah, it still superior to hit things not the torso. Yeah, I fixed my post for that wording.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

If someone is a warrior they should have 13 skill minimum IMO. 10 to 12 for me means "This person has probably picked up and swung swords enough to know where the point end goes". This is mostly because 8-10 is default skill level for characters with decent DX.

I disagree with this entire paragraph. PCs tend to have inflatedly high skill levels, yes, because players hate to miss attacks. Skill 12 is where I'd peg professional snipers and weapons at DX level (10) as typical for most soldiers who can take one of Telegraphic or All-Out Attack to boost their accuracy while people relying on default alone need both and elite warriors (as most combat PCs tend to be) can do away with both.

[Kalzazz]

I tend to disagree, I aim for the torso the most, because in order to get good effects you need to hit, and the skill used to aim for hit locations can instead be used to go deceptive or rapid strike increasing chances to hit

[Ulzgoroth]

At TL2, some people might have helmets that largely enclose the face but no one is likely to have neck armor. If you've got the skill for it (and you can buy a Technique to help) stabbing folks in the neck is a very appropriate approach.

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

I read some of the other posts, an here is my 2 cents to add on this topic.

1. Hitboxes

Targeting the torso is almost always the worst place to hit on an individual in melee combat. If any body location can take punishment it's the torso.

It's almost always infinitely better to target non-torso locations. Breaking an arm makes counter attack useless. Breaking a leg leaves an individual laying on the ground. Hitting the head, even if only a single point of damage gets through, forces a HT-10 roll for Knockdown and possible stunning.

I've got to disagree with this in some respects. The torso is never the best place to hit, but it's often not the worst. Especially if you're using the 1-in-6 chance for torso hits to actually be Vitals.

Most importantly, impaling (or big piercing) damage loses its favorable wounding effects on limbs. You might want to stab someone in the arm sometimes, but you're losing a lot of damage potential.

For crushing, and especially for cutting (which has no Vitals effects), the torso has less going for it. But it can still be a good target for very strong attacks where you'll lose a lot of wounding to the cap on limb hits. Of course smashing somebody's arm or leg to uselessness has a considerable benefit of its own, but one-shotting them to negative HP may be more useful than breaking their arm.

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I tend to disagree, I aim for the torso the most, because in order to get good effects you need to hit, and the skill used to aim for hit locations can instead be used to go deceptive or rapid strike increasing chances to hit

If that's your only reason to aim for the torso, you should take a random location instead. It doesn't cost you any skill and gives you a chance of hitting somewhere else. This may often be a good choice for a cutting or crushing attack.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

Skill 12 is where I'd peg professional snipers and weapons at DX level (10) as typical for most soldiers...

Different settings use different assumptions. You can probably find the most realistic treatment in Tactical Shooting, although that's only applicable to firearms (and possibly other ranged combat skills), but in a setting where high skill is the default I wouldn't even blink at amateurs with skill 13+.

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I tend to disagree, I aim for the torso the most, because in order to get good effects you need to hit, and the skill used to aim for hit locations can instead be used to go deceptive or rapid strike increasing chances to hit

I interpreted that as something like "if you're hitting anyway, it's best to avoid the Torso." And, honestly, this is typically true - you can only get bonus injury from the Vitals with a few attack types, and even when you're comparing limb hits to Torso hits with an impaling weapon, automatically crippling a limb is often more useful than dropping the foe below 0 HP (at least, if the foe has high HT) - and as I outline above, tip slash can help even things out even in that case. There's also the fact that the two most heavily armored locations tend to be the Torso and the Skull, so typically aiming anywhere else means dealing with lower DR.

Given, with the penalties to hit (which typically translate to a bonus to defend, as you can't lower your skill with deceptive attack as much) of the various locations, and the importance that even a single hit can have in GURPS, the Torso often does wind up as a pretty good location to attack. There's usually a fairly balanced toss-up as to where is the best location to attack in any given situation - a few exceptions being the Legs in any situation where mobility is a concern, and of course the Wings in any aerial combat where one or more characters has Flight (Winged).

[Kalzazz]

Front Torso and skull tend to be the most commonly armored areas I find also, weapon arm, neck, groin and feet possibly next tier of popularity

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

At TL2, some people might have helmets that largely enclose the face but no one is likely to have neck armor. If you've got the skill for it (and you can buy a Technique to help) stabbing folks in the neck is a very appropriate approach.

I've got to disagree with this in some respects. The torso is never the best place to hit, but it's often not the worst. Especially if you're using the 1-in-6 chance for torso hits to actually be Vitals.

Most importantly, impaling (or big piercing) damage loses its favorable wounding effects on limbs. You might want to stab someone in the arm sometimes, but you're losing a lot of damage potential.

For crushing, and especially for cutting (which has no Vitals effects), the torso has less going for it. But it can still be a good target for very strong attacks where you'll lose a lot of wounding to the cap on limb hits. Of course smashing somebody's arm or leg to uselessness has a considerable benefit of its own, but one-shotting them to negative HP may be more useful than breaking their arm.

If that's your only reason to aim for the torso, you should take a random location instead. It doesn't cost you any skill and gives you a chance of hitting somewhere else. This may often be a good choice for a cutting or crushing attack.

This assumes you are mixing in Martial Arts rules, which I never assume when people are posting. Yes, if you take the possible vital hit then Torso isn't bad, but otherwise it requires you to do massive damage in order to effectively end combat. I say End COmbat because even killing someone may not be the goal of a fight. I also said "Almost" always, not "Always". I am usually careful about making absolute statements, because things like reducing effective skill to low to be useful and other factors tie into choosing a location too.

However, if you're trying to make someone ineffective in combat, Torso is not often the best place to hit.

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

I disagree with this entire paragraph. PCs tend to have inflatedly high skill levels, yes, because players hate to miss attacks. Skill 12 is where I'd peg professional snipers and weapons at DX level (10) as typical for most soldiers who can take one of Telegraphic or All-Out Attack to boost their accuracy while people relying on default alone need both and elite warriors (as most combat PCs tend to be) can do away with both.

Considering 1 point = 100 hours of training, that tends to mean with someone with 12 DX that only 100 hours of training puts them at 12 skill.

I can't imagine putting 1 point in a skill makes you an expert sniper. I can agree it makes you trained, but not expert. I'd probably never stat an enemy sniper, even average at less than 13 in Rifles.

Of course, it's up to each GM, but judging from all the templates for NPCs and such, you don't tend to see combat "Experts" at less than 13.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by GodBeastX

4. Hit chances

If someone is a warrior they should have 13 skill minimum IMO. 10 to 12 for me means "This person has probably picked up and swung swords enough to know where the point end goes". This is mostly because 8-10 is default skill level for characters with decent DX.

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

I disagree with this entire paragraph. PCs tend to have inflatedly high skill levels, yes, because players hate to miss attacks. Skill 12 is where I'd peg professional snipers and weapons at DX level (10) as typical for most soldiers who can take one of Telegraphic or All-Out Attack to boost their accuracy while people relying on default alone need both and elite warriors (as most combat PCs tend to be) can do away with both.

Dear OP, here is where you will see two very different schools of GURPS. simply Nathan is representing the Cult of Stat Normalization that tends to want characters to have low skills and low attributes because they see that as realistic. GodBeastX is representing the other school...which I don't think has a name...which finds higher skills and attributes realistic.

You get to choose which school your join.

Quite a lot of the difference is that the Cult member tend to think people have low skills but get generous bonuses for routine tasks. Of course life and death situations are never routine tasks which tends to result in bad times once the PCs start adventuring (in my experience).

I remember reading this somewhere once (though I don't recall where)...and this is where I fall: 12 for starting professional level skills, 14 for starting professional level skills where life and death is concerned (combatants, surgeons, pilots, etc).

But for me 14 is Spear is a good starting professional level.