How do you raise Magery in game?

[hal]

Removed by Author

[jbalsle]

Originally Posted by hal

Hello Folks,
I figured I'd post this question and see how people describe the process of raising magery.

I've noted that people talk of raising magery after the start of character creation based on the idea/concept of an experienced wizard. As a result of this, I'm taking a stab at rationalizing this process and seeing where it leads. I hope others will present either their ideas on rationalizing this, or picking apart my own concepts pointing out the flaws inherent in them.

For me, my "bias" is that Magery is an inbred thing - you either have it or don't have it. Some are born with Magery 0, others are born with better aspects of it. Ultimately, you can't beat what the gods have dealt you when you were born except via Godly intervention or with a Great Wish.

There exists however, others who like to permit magery as something that can be improved. There are some interesting ramifications to this however, so lets explore them.

First - either Magery is a genetic trait, or it isn't a genetic trait. If it is not a genetic trait, then it makes it such that ANYONE can obtain Magery. The question is - by what means may anyone obtain this "trait"? Is it knowledge? Is it the mere accumulation of some sort of "mystic static charge" based on TRYING to cast magic?

If it is knowledge based - why isn't Magery simply a skill? If it were simply a skill, why does it cost 5 points invaribly for everyone instead of being cheaper for the "smarter" dudes, and more expensive for the "dumber" dudes? The difference between Magery 0 and Magery 1 isn't just that you can now cast other spells that were originally off limits to Magery 0 mages, but also that learning any given spell takes 10% less time. This does not make sense. Lets assume that a mage has yet to learn the spell ITCH. He is also 3 points (presumably 600 hours of study) away from upgrading from Magery 1. If he waits after spending 600 hours of study to complete his upgrade, he now only needs to spend 180 hours of study into ITCH. If he doesn't wait, he still needs to spend 200 hours of study into ITCH. So how is it that studying to bring Magery 0 to Magery 1 permits this?

Lets assume that Magery is itself genetic, but the levels are variable. This means that not anyone can be a mage, but must be mageborn. If you presume that Magery itself is a learnable trait, then it is not exactly a genetic trait per se, but one that can improve with use - much like strength can be improved by weight lifting, agility improved by constant pushing your body through agility related exercises, etc. But this implies then, that the starting state of Magery 0 would tend to be the default state. Does this mean that Magery progresses from 0 to 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 etc? One possible explanation is that Magery is like IQ. Some people are born with lesser ability than others, but can improve with hard work. Others, just can't improve at all.

That still leaves me with the question "How does one improve magery". Is it a skill? Is it some sort of "psychic muscle" that can be improved with exercise? What kind of exercises are required? It is one thing to talk in "meta rules speak" about experience points being spent on improving Magery. It is another thing to translate it into a "process" from the perspective of people trying to do it as if they were "REAL PEOPLE" (TM pending <g>).

So - what say you? How does Magery improve from a low state to a higher state? How come, if it isn't skill based, that it affects the mind's ability to learn spells faster?

It really depends on your definition of magic how Magery works in your gameworld. First of all, Magery is a Talent, not a skill. It influences uses of skills it is designed to affect (all spells and the skill Thaumatology), with an option in Powers to also have it affect traits with the Modifier 'Magical'. Mind you, some of the special rules for other Talents do not apply to Magery (off the top of my head, reaction bonuses come to mind.)

Now, how all this comes together is influenced by the GM's view of how magic works in his universe. This is how it usually works in my gameworlds.

Magery 0 is renamed 'Magical Aptitude'. This trait _is_ inborn. If you have the trait, you can learn magic, and anyone who can read your aura will know this. You might not actually learn magic (a True Atlantean Operator from an old Rifts game comes to mind there), in fact, you may dislike or even hate magic, or even better, not know magic exists, let alone is a power you can wield. But this trait is the difference between someone who is a mage and someone who is not. It functions in all other ways the same as Magery/0.

Magery is a leveled trait that has Magical Aptitude as a prerequisite. It is a Power Talent (from GURPS: Powers) that influences Traits with the Magical limitation, which are learned spells. Each level of Magery reduces the time to learn a spell by 20 hours per character point. And should I use the skill-based magic system in GURPS, it will add to those skill levels as normal. You may improve your talent level as for any talent level, with experience, training, and practice.

I find this works nicely for the highly powered games I like to run.

[Great Cthuloz]

I work on an initiatory basis - that is, the mage "evolves" becomming more "magical" through her experiences. i quie like the XP spending to be done as part of some kind of ritual - the mage doing something to "push" themselves onto the next level

youcan, of course, work this into an adventure - include wierd mystical experiences into the game, that sort of "form" some kind of initiation.

however, i also like my mages to get progressivly odd as they improve their magery - i encourage gaining new disads or quirks to represent this - basically, as the mage becomes better able to deal with the magickal world, they become less able to deal with normality

finally, as per genetic/trained, 4th ed makes this easier. magery 0 can be genetic, but once you have that basic talent, you can use your experiences to become better

[Great Cthuloz]

I'll add that, my group are discussing in our new campaign, STRONGLY encouraging mages to buy magic0based powers in addition to their spells - basically, effects that "become part of them" - partly to represent, again, the transition into a magical being

[Kaldrin]

Originally Posted by Great Cthuloz

I'll add that, my group are discussing in our new campaign, STRONGLY encouraging mages to buy magic0based powers in addition to their spells - basically, effects that "become part of them" - partly to represent, again, the transition into a magical being

That's not a bad way of doing it for those that already have magery.

I had a campaign a long time ago where it came up that a person wanted to become a mage. In the end I decided to put him through a series of trials that proved his worth to higher powers. Not necessarily gods, but higher powers who would be able to grant his request. Most of it revolved around improving his mind rather than just bashing down doors... which he seemed to excel at. In the end he decided being a brutish fighter was better for him than being a combat mage.

[DrTemp]

Originally Posted by jbalsle

It really depends on your definition of magic how Magery works in your gameworld.
[...]

However, even if Magery is entirely inborn, you might research a spell "Raise Magery", if your GM allows it.

[The Wrathchild]

Originally Posted by hal

For me, my "bias" is that Magery is an inbred thing - you either have it or don't have it.

One way of seeing it.

There exists however, others who like to permit magery as something that can be improved.

We are legion :-D

First - either Magery is a genetic trait, or it isn't a genetic trait. If it is not a genetic trait, then it makes it such that ANYONE can obtain Magery. The question is - by what means may anyone obtain this "trait"? Is it knowledge? Is it the mere accumulation of some sort of "mystic static charge" based on TRYING to cast magic?

IMC's, Magery is more like Languages, or - expressing a broad, general competence/attunement in/to the mystical. Individual skills (the spells, like Writing for languages) express the ability to form specific effects.

If it is knowledge based - why isn't Magery simply a skill?

Call it knowledge/experience-based - and for about the same reasons languages aren't skills.

If you presume that Magery itself is a learnable trait, then it is not exactly a genetic trait per se, but one that can improve with use - much like strength can be improved by weight lifting, agility improved by constant pushing your body through agility related exercises, etc. But this implies then, that the starting state of Magery 0 would tend to be the default state. Does this mean that Magery progresses from 0 to 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 etc? One possible explanation is that Magery is like IQ. Some people are born with lesser ability than others, but can improve with hard work. Others, just can't improve at all.

This is another way of articulating my stance.

That still leaves me with the question "How does one improve magery". Is it a skill? Is it some sort of "psychic muscle" that can be improved with exercise? What kind of exercises are required? It is one thing to talk in "meta rules speak" about experience points being spent on improving Magery. It is another thing to translate it into a "process" from the perspective of people trying to do it as if they were "REAL PEOPLE" (TM pending <g>).

IMC's it's a natural process, mechanically going up one step at a time, but in the game world no such levels exist - it's a meta-thing

The reason I'm so free with these things in my current game is that Magery is sort of the "road to godhood" - not that the game is anywhere near that highpowered ... yet ;-).

By working with several scores of magery levels, the old liberal interpretation of Draw Power (from the infamous Pyramid article that necessitated an official rules tightening of that particualr spell) and mega-powerful free-flowing rivers of magical energy tappable by this spell, you can essentially get characters capable of god-like feats within a reasonable point budget (the setting is ICE's Shadow World, if you are wondering).

And then I just don't like things that are fixed and unalterable ;-)

[Captain-Captain]

The first time I allowed it, I came from a "Buy it at Creation or Great Wish it later" mindframe. But I'd set up a special adventure for my players. They encountered a place that was in truth a mix of reality and illusion. More specifically it was a demon ruled illusionary/reality zone that was stealing reality to give that reality to illusions it would send out into the world to wreak havoc.

Characters who entered ran risks. Healed damage was illusionary and the healing worked, as long as you were in the zone. Step outside and those fixes disappeared. If a character's true HT dropped to negative HT, I rolled secretly. If a death result occured the character lost all reality. Leaving the zone would be quite fatal unless the process was reversed. The victim, if conscious was instantaneously aware of what was happening and had certain knowledge that immediately returning to the zone was the only way to stay alive.

An unconscous illusion character brought outside the zone was going to be utterly destroyed and likely no one would even know until it poofed.

Some things were gimmes. Shapechange swapped all of your reality for illusion. Do not pass go, no $200. Instant you;'re screwed. ;)

There were several ways out of this. They could deal with the demon and with enough incentive, get their reality back. Or do it the old fashioned way and beat the demon to a pulp or worse in it's lair and operate the magic item powering the effect so they would get their reality back.

Getting reality back, in setting terms was simple. You became YOU as you envisioned yourself. In game terms it was simpler: Use your current point total to build the character more or less as he or she was. Raise the attributes as if you were a starting character. Same basic character please. (And of course one guy insisted he was now an elf...)

Anyway, I had a couple of players who didn't take more than Magery 1 first time out. They ah, corrected that in the retcon.

And I learned something valuable. Raising magery levels after play starts was not that disruptive to the game. I do have an upper limit in mind for magery: Five. At this point you acquire a major disad or several smaller ones. Going beyond that and you're a magical entity yourself. You do NOT ever want to be in a no mana region. Vampires and Dratons understand this for similar reasons.

To answer your specific question, raising magery is akin to gaining Combat Reflexes. Or raising your ST score through weight lifting and other strenous exercising. Skills are not the only things that improve with experience and study.

[Nex]

I didn't read gurps mass combat so I am just refering to the quote:

Combat reflexes is an interesting example, one I am glad you raised. In GURPS MASS COMBAT, it states that once you reached a certain "level of experience" (ie 7+ battles) you were presumed to have Combat reflexes as an advantage.

It can also be seen from the other side: people who really survived 7 or more battles obviously have to have combat reflexes in the first place, otherwise they wouldn't probably have survived so many.

@hal:

I see where your problem is here.. since an advantage is, most of the time, a rather integral part of the character I generally do not allow players to buy advantages for their characters after character creation. Such things will only happen in very special incidents like exposure to some very powerful spell, cinematic radioactivity, a wish granted, divine intervention etc. in the course of a campaign.

In the case of magery: a good example for that could be the transformation of gandalf the grey to gandalf the white in lord of the rings. Gandalf the white surely had some more levels of magery, but he gained it not just by time but by a very special event.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by hal

First - either Magery is a genetic trait, or it isn't a genetic trait. If it is not a genetic trait, then it makes it such that ANYONE can obtain Magery. The question is - by what means may anyone obtain this "trait"? Is it knowledge?

For me, training. It can also be gained by exposure to a major magical event.

If it is knowledge based - why isn't Magery simply a skill?

Combat Reflexes is learnable and it's not a skill. Same for Literacy.