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Old 09-25-2019, 11:10 AM   #51
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

Also, I would call the Charles VI garment Layered Cloth because its heavier than ordinary 14th century clothing, and provides significantly more protection. Its one of the heaviest padded garments I know, but it has oil and rust stains from iron armour, its possible that soldiers without iron armour wore even heavier equipment. In the end, we have to balance different game stats, metagame considerations (ie. not defining an item which is 'just better' than the alternatives in game terms but 'about the same' in real life), consistency with existing rules (Dan had to work with stats from the Basic Set and the firearms experts' definition of DR 70 = 1" RHA) and simplicity.
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Old 09-25-2019, 12:50 PM   #52
Rasna
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
All the garments you are thinking of were worn over the top of armor, not underneath.
Well, then, citing your own GURPS work:

"European Crusaders
As noted above, the arms and armor of European Crusaders were very similar to those of their Middle Eastern opponents. The hauberk was shortened to cover the torso only (haubergeon, or “little hauberk”). Under the haubergeon, a padded garment called an aketon covered the torso and arms. The legs and feet were protected by mail leggings (chaussons) and the hands were covered by mail mittens called mufflers that were often attached to the sleeves of the haubergeon.
On the head, a mail coife covered the shoulders and part of the upper chest. Over this was a flat-topped helmet (with face visor), a bascinet, and mail aventail."

From the table:

Common Name: Padded Shirt || Ethnic Name: Aketon || Location: torso, arms || DR 1*

Here, the aketon is considered Padded Cloth and is worn under the haubergeon, removing the need for a separate tunic. So this is an error?

Last edited by Rasna; 09-25-2019 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 09-25-2019, 12:52 PM   #53
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
It seems that when you're getting that detailed, it becomes a literal matter of inches. For that, arm length seems just as important assuming equal length weapons. That's really getting fiddly.
I took fencing in college. I was not particularly good at it (*maybe* I had a point in it), but in epee, if your opponent stuck his front leg out and didn't keep it mobile, it was by no means hard to attack the thigh or the foot (attacking the lower leg is not easy, it tends to be at a very bad angle).

The general drawbacks are that the legs are more mobile than the body, and they just aren't as desirable a target (which GURPS models by giving a x1 wounding modifier for impaling attacks).
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Old 09-25-2019, 01:08 PM   #54
Rasna
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
What examples of such heavy quilted garments worn under iron armour do you have? I linked you a page describing arming doublets/pourpoints/aketons worn under iron armour, they are about as heavy as a modern giacca/blazer with a complete canvas lining. If you go by weight, none of them is heavy enough for GURPS Padded Cloth, if you go by thickness than the heaviest might be DR 1.
The point is that some padding that will be DR 1* in game was sometimes worn, especially if you consider the Charles garment as Light Layered Cloth with DR 2*. Both the kabadion and some aketons from mid XII century to early XIV century were thicker than ordinary clothing, enough to give DR 1* (even if they didn't reach the GURPS's "6 lbs. for 100% of torso armour"). Treating them as Padded Cloth (removing the need of separate Ordinary Clothing garments, and thus considering them as being 4.4 lbs. + 1.6 lbs. of Ordinary Clothing; or even better, as 3.5 lbs. + 1.6 lbs of Ordinary Clothing in case of Expert Tailoring) would be fine IMO, and this specific combination shouldn't give DX penalty (maybe adding +1 CF for being made and tailored to worn with other forms of armour for a better game balance). You could even consider them as full DR 1* only if they're worn with other armour, giving them -1 DR vs. impaling if they're worn as standalone armour (this interaction between garments is similarly represented in game with the combination of Plate Armour and the Arming Doublet).

Quote:
Why do you think such a fifteenth-century jack would be GURPS Padded Cloth not Layered Cloth? Sources from fifteenth-century Europe describe jacks of from 10 to 30 layers of linen cloth, and we have some extant examples in Germany which are quite thick except where the breastplate will cover them.
At sight, it could be GURPS "Padded Cloth", GURPS "Light Layered Cloth" or a real-life in-between these two (something that maybe would give DR 1.5*, but we have to round up or down both DR and weight for game granularity). I'll treat it as "Padded Cloth" or, at maximum, as "Light Layered Cloth" for torso and shoulders and "Padded Cloth" for the rest of the sleeves. Anyway, is clearly something heavier than regular clothing but lighter than a proper jack meant to be used as standalone armour, and is worn between mail and breastplate.

Last edited by Rasna; 09-25-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 09-25-2019, 02:44 PM   #55
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

So I was wrong about the weight of Padded Cloth in GURPS Low Tech, I remembered 4 lbs for the Torso + Groin. Realistically it might be fair to give most low-tech armour 4 pounds for DR 1 on the torso, but in Dungeon Fantasy type settings you want a way to distinguish between many styles of armour, and Dan wanted a type of armour to represent the padded armour in the Basic Set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
The point is that some padding that will be DR 1* in game was sometimes worn, especially if you consider the Charles garment as Light Layered Cloth with DR 2*. Both the kabadion and some aketons from mid XII century to early XIV century were thicker than ordinary clothing, enough to give DR 1* (even if they didn't reach the GURPS's "6 lbs. for 100% of torso armour"). Treating them as Padded Cloth (removing the need of separate Ordinary Clothing garments, and thus considering them as being 4.4 lbs. + 1.6 lbs. of Ordinary Clothing; or even better, as 3.5 lbs. + 1.6 lbs of Ordinary Clothing in case of Expert Tailoring) would be fine IMO, and this specific combination shouldn't give DX penalty (maybe adding +1 CF for being made and tailored to worn with other forms of armour for a better game balance).
I think it is fair for iron armour + DR 1* linen armour to give -1 DX. Realistically this combination is hot and bulky, but since GURPS does not represent either a DX penalty is fair (alternatively, enforce an extra -1 FP after fights as if wearing winter clothing, page B426). The anonymous Byzantine on strategy actually says that many soldiers don't want to wear thick quilted garments under their armour, but they should because ... Many of the other sources are explicit that the quilted garment is worn over the iron mail.

We have two quilted garments from France in the 1200s: one is a quilted coat for a queen, the other is a sleeve for a soldier. Both are made in the same way, with unspun cotton quilted between layers of cloth. Ordinary European clothing from 1300 to 1600 probably has DR 1 (cut) on Torso, Arms, and sometimes Neck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
At sight, it could be GURPS "Padded Cloth", GURPS "Light Layered Cloth" or a real-life in-between these two (something that maybe would give DR 1.5*, but we have to round up or down both DR and weight for game granularity). I'll treat it as "Padded Cloth" or, at maximum, as "Light Layered Cloth" for torso and shoulders and "Padded Cloth" for the rest of the sleeves. Anyway, is clearly something heavier than regular clothing but lighter than a proper jack meant to be used as standalone armour, and is worn between mail and breastplate.
Yes, it is hard with just the painting. And so is deciding when to assess a penalty for wearing multiple layers of armour, but in a game, where you usually don't represent that the padded armour is DR 3 on the back but DR 1 in the area covered by the breastplate, it is fair to be strict. GMs who have worn armour can adjust the rules on a case-by-case basis. I would probably be generous to someone who wanted to wear just a Breastplate (Chest Front) over a specially made Layered Cloth garment, and harsh to someone who obviously just wanted the most DR for the least GURPS Dollars.
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Old 09-25-2019, 02:55 PM   #56
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

In fact, Low Tech page 103 has a solution "However, DX penalties donít apply if the total odds of partial armor protecting a hit location are 3 in 6 or less (see the Armor Locations Table, p. 100), or for armor that covers only the head."

I would rule that a breastplate (Chest Front) counts as "3 in 6 or less", so a Light Mail Torso + Arms, Layered Cloth Torso + Arms, and Plate Chest Front would count as two layers of armour. It would give -1 DX.
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Old 09-25-2019, 04:27 PM   #57
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by Rasna View Post
Both the kabadion and some aketons from mid XII century to early XIV century were thicker than ordinary clothing,
I'd love to know from where you derive your information about kabadions. As far as I know, none survive.
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:01 PM   #58
Rasna
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
In fact, Low Tech page 103 has a solution "However, DX penalties donít apply if the total odds of partial armor protecting a hit location are 3 in 6 or less (see the Armor Locations Table, p. 100), or for armor that covers only the head."

I would rule that a breastplate (Chest Front) counts as "3 in 6 or less", so a Light Mail Torso + Arms, Layered Cloth Torso + Arms, and Plate Chest Front would count as two layers of armour. It would give -1 DX.
I already knew about the 3 in 6 or less rule, already applied in our campaings. However, I really like the idea of the extra FP loss for wearing such a layer of padding or overcoat, maybe united with a -1 penalty for Fast-Draw and DX rolls for readiness of reaction, instead of giving the full -1 DX penalty. This would give a valid reason to choose to not wear these items without giving an excessive penalty for those fighter that choose instead to wear them.
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:08 PM   #59
Rasna
 
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

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Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
I'd love to know from where you derive your information about kabadions. As far as I know, none survive.
Cited from "A Companion to the Byzantine Culture of War, ca. 300-1204":

"A type of garment resembling a coat made of padded cotton opening in the centre front was the kabadion. There were two types of kabadia: (a) for the infantry, reaching down the knees, with long detachable sleeves split between the elbow and the wrist, and (b) for the horse archers, offering protection from the waist down to the lower part of the archer's body and part of the horse."

If it was something that "offered protection", then would be something at least somewhat thicker and heavier than GURPS Ordinary Clothing. And, in your own work for GURPS, you classified both the European aketon and the Eastern Roman kabadion as being GURPS Padded Cloth - and note, the point of the discussion isn't if these garments were "6 lbs. for 100% torso armour" in real life because 1) GURPS low-tech armour and items tend to be heavier than their real counterparts, and 2) the granularity and the abstraction of GURPS system doesn't take in account different sizes for the same SM and decimal DR variations. If I'm in error at translating these items as GURPS "Padded Cloth", well, then you did the same thing in your book.

To me, for game mechanics, an arming undergarment or overgarment a little heavier than the 3 lbs. Arming Doublet could be something like "Padded Cloth with Expert Tailoring" that count also as Ordinary Clothing, removing the need of a separate tunic: you can see it as being 3.5 lbs. of padding +1.6 lb. of Ordinary Clothing if you like. Worn as standalone armour, it would give DR 1* (-1 DR vs. impaling) or full DR 1*; worn with other armour that is designed to be worn with it, would give full DR 1* and no DX penalty. Note that the total weight is only +27.5% heavier that Light Leather/Winter Clothing designed to be worn with armour, is only +2% heavier than the full DR 1* Heavy Coat, it weight less than half than the Charles heavy pourpoint (which was IRL a thing that weighted 10 to 12 lbs. and that Polydamas, according to his writings, would consider as being "Light Layered Cloth") and does include in its stats a layer of Ordinary Clothing, which alone doesn't give any DR, but here is combined with this padding and the light padding that usually is included in armour stats.

For game balance, the result is +1* DR at a fair price (+$300 and +5.1 lbs. for 100% of torso armour); -1 to Fast-Draw rolls, -1 FP lost after an heavy fight.

Last edited by Rasna; 09-25-2019 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 09-25-2019, 09:02 PM   #60
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Default Re: [Low-Tech] Padded Cloth and Layered Armour penalty

If it was light enough to be worn under armour then it didn't provide protection. The padded versions were standlone armour, just like the European ones.
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