Glass Bottle vs. 9 mm Parabellum

[Grey_Fox]

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

....However, I've been submitting questions about the book-written rules of GURPS here, not asking advice on how common sense works in RPGs. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Anyone knows that any commercial 9mm handgun round can easily destroy any of glassware in your house in one shot. But does this happen in GURPS?

A small (1/4 cup = 2 fluid ounces) glass bottle has DR 1 and HP 3 (Low-Tech, p. 34). It's a piece of glass with no moving parts, so it's obviously Homogenous. The bottle is going to match against an iconic 9mm handgun, Beretta 92F (High-Tech, p. 100), which does 2d+2 pi or 9 points (on average). On hit, the glass bottle above takes an injury of (9 - DR 1) * 1/5 (for Homogenous) = 1 point, rounded down.

Yes, only one point per round --you need to shoot the bottle three times with 9mm handgun to force it to roll a unconsciousness check (partial destruction), and six times to force it to roll a death check (total destruction)! This is clearly a murphy. How can you destroy glassware with a handgun in one shot in GURPS, just like in the real life?

Originally Posted by Danukian

As noted on Low Tech p34, Glass bottles aren't Homogenous ....

I would just like to point out that you are claiming that RAW doesn't do it the way you want it too, but you already admitted that you have changed it from RAW....i don't understand your question? You can't add things that are not in the RAW and then complain that its broken, so either A use the glass bottle as written in LT without homogeneous or B use common sense.

[Ulzgoroth]

Oh, random notice: most unpowered boats and ships are Unliving, not Homogeneous, according to LT:139. Only tangentially relevant, but I'm happy to see it.

Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

I would just like to point out that you are claiming that RAW doesn't do it the way you want it too, but you already admitted that you have changed it from RAW....i don't understand your question? You can't add things that are not in the RAW and then complain that its broken, so either A use the glass bottle as written in LT without homogeneous or B use common sense.

You should maybe have read a little further in the thread:

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Yes, glass bottles are Brittle, as pointed out on p. 34 of Low-Tech, and I didn't say otherwise. However, Brittle and Homogenous are not mutually exclusive (examples include Body of Stone meta-trait, p. B262). And a glass bottle is a solid object; in fact, Homogenous is particularly meant for beings whose "body has no vulnerable internal organs, bones, muscles, or other mechanisms" (p. B60). Glass bottles, which lack "internal organs, bones, muscles, or other mechanisms", are obviously Homogenous -- just as wooden furniture is.

LT does not explicitly say that glass bottles are homogeneous. But neither that nor the presence of Fragile (Brittle) is an indication that they aren't. LT has little text connected to IT classes at all, but it's safe to assume many objects statted in its pages are Unliving or Homogeneous. The relevant passages for assigning such characteristics are probably in the Basic Set.

[Danukian]

Lol - this is what I love about the forums - there is a simple, strait forward question and overnight it is blown into 3 pages.

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Yes, glass bottles are Brittle, as pointed out on p. 34 of Low-Tech, and I didn't say otherwise. However, Brittle and Homogenous are not mutually exclusive (examples include Body of Stone meta-trait, p. B262). And a glass bottle is a solid object; in fact, Homogenous is particularly meant for beings whose "body has no vulnerable internal organs, bones, muscles, or other mechanisms" (p. B60). Glass bottles, which lack "internal organs, bones, muscles, or other mechanisms", are obviously Homogenous -- just as wooden furniture is.

No:wooden crates, ships, wagons, etc. glass bottles are Unliving, not Homogenous. I wold give glassware neither, since glass is easily damaged by cutting and impaling weapons. What would GURPS do? Well LT 34 specifically mentions the realistic statistics of glass, and does not mention Homogenous - however it does specifically mention Unliving for ships, and Homogenous for doors and rafts - either Glassware doesn't have these traits and is very easily broken at DR 1 HP3 Brittle; or those pesky, lazy writers/editors at GURPS just randomly plug modifiers on some items and make you guess at others. Seeing as I have yet to find an item that is vastly different from RL experience going by RAW, and you end up with bottles that are bullet-proof and able to take a hit from a large knife without a scratch, I am going to go with the first assumption.

[Kraydak]

There sort of is a Murphy, but it isn't quite the one you think. GURPS hp are based on the cube-root of mass, i.e. they are based on linear dimensions. Imagine punching a monolithic sheet of glass 2 odd inches thick. Ouch! 4 points of damage to get through that might be an overestimate, but then again, it might not. I fortunately haven't had to make it a policy not to test such things.

The problem comes with the wound multiplier. GURPS implicitly assumes that the cross-sectional radius of the impactor is much smaller (but not much, much smaller) than the cross-sectional radius of the target. In the case of bullets vs. small targets, the effective cross-sectional radius of the bullet/temporary wound cavity/whatever is often larger than the target, and the wound multiplier should rise way above the GURPS maximum of 2, even for non-living targets.

[Hannes665]

Then there is the fact that a Glass is not same as the next Glass.

I have dropped drinking glasses from 4 feet some crack other go into million bits while other dont even crack. Type of glass varies, for example a window.

TL 5 window, single sheet would easily crack while a TL 8 glass window multi-sheet can withstand a golf ball´s direct hit from 10 yards with a Iron 7 club. (My own personal accident).

Also there is always the option of using common sense when it comes to shooting glass bottles, you hit it breaks unless you are shooting a 22LR from a rifle at 10-15 yards and the Vodka bottle you shoot just falls over, happened to me not once but twice, took 3 shoots to break the bottle.

[Ed the Coastie]

I don't see what the problem is. I have seen plenty of glass bottles over the years that were not shattered into oblivion when hit with a bullet, but also any number that were. As a result, I simply use GM fiat...the bottle automatically breaks unless there is a reason for it to possibly not (such as Mook #3 about to throw a glass canning jar full of acid, and the PC sniper decides to break the jar rather than just shoot the mook).

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Danukian

Lol - this is what I love about the forums - there is a simple, strait forward question and overnight it is blown into 3 pages.



No:wooden crates, ships, wagons, etc. glass bottles are Unliving, not Homogenous.

Basic gives inanimate objects without a lot of moving parts, including most unpowered vehicles (maybe not including ships with a lot of rigging, etc.), the Homogenous trait.

[Kromm]

Hollow glass objects need something like a Vulnerability to impact (crushing, cutting, impaling, and piercing damage, as distinguished from burning, corrosion, fatigue, and toxic damage). Such objects' listed HP work fine when it comes to standing up to flame, acid, etc.; for working out collision damage when you chuck one at someone; and for most other uses of HP. However, said HP do seem too high against impacts if such objects have Homogenous and no other wounding modifiers.

The catch is that we don't really have the space to give inanimate objects character sheets. That's why we have rules like the ones on p. 224 of Martial Arts and p. 28 of Dungeon Fantasy 1, which cover situations where glass breakage is liable to be important to the plot.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Maz

It should probably have DR:3 HP:1 instead.

This way, if you hit someone with it, it won't break unless you do a lot of damage 4+. (this is realistic). But a single powerful blow (or shot) will break it.

I agree. It seems to me that a 3HP bottle must be quite a large specimen.

[DocRailgun]

It seems to me that GURPS is written with a lot of assumptions that the GM is an active part of the game rather than a simple referee.
So, just as we are free not to allow M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N, you are free to have a glass break even if the damage doesn't process the way you may like.

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Anyone knows that any commercial 9mm handgun round can easily destroy any of glassware in your house in one shot. But does this happen in GURPS?