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Old 03-08-2014, 09:36 PM   #31
vitruvian
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: Captain America Falling

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
The movie shield is pure vibranium (as described in Captain America - The First Avenger). Cap's shield in the comics is a unique unobtanium item made from trying to alloy vibranium with iron (adamantium was developed by the same guy later in an attempt to duplicate the indestructible properties of the shield). (The "adamantium/vibranium alloy" bit has never been reconciled with the account that adamantium was developed after the shield was created....)

Essentially, the comics shield is a handwave: "Okay, the shield absorbs the impact, transferring none of the damage to Cap. No, don't ask about physics, the shield is superscience."

As we're dealing with movie!Cap in this thread, based off the new movie due out, let's not muddy the waters when trying to deal with the inconsistencies of the comics, 'k?

From an earlier post, Cap is said to be doing a spread eagle for most of the fall, then twisting to land feet-first in the water. That's a standard sky-diving trick to attempt to slow the fall by providing as much body as possible. The real questions now are: How high up was the plane when he jumped out of it, and how high was he when he shifted to a naval frog-man's dive? Also, was he wearing his uniform or his civvies?
And the movie shield, while pure vibranium, is just as much handwavium as the comics version, considering it lets him take a direct strike from Mjolnir and absorb/deflect the impact enough that he's unharmed, and while knocked down, not driven into the ground like a tent peg. I say deflect as well as absorb based on the reflected shockwave knocking down trees... ;-)
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:42 PM   #32
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Default Re: Captain America Falling

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
I haven't gotten a chance to see this iteration of Captain America in action outside of "Avengers"; how specific were they about his powers because the comic books have that typical mishmash that comes from non-technical descriptions couples with assumptions, even before factoring in retcons and the like. The premise was (is?) that Captain America is turned into a "peak human" or the like by the Super Soldier Serum, but that is very open to interpretation; does that mean realistic peak, does it include his brain structure as well, etc.? Traits that some people have but others lack? An actual design stand point (this is the best a human can evolve into while still being "human"/this is restoring humanity to some ancient peak before decline/whatever the setting calls for).

Relevance to the discussion is what has already been lightly addressed; how high are Cap's Attributes, what mundane and exotic physical Advantages he might have, etc. Oh, then toss in what skills he would have developed by this time; even in the Marvel Movie-verse, I would hope he's had at least some high level (or at least normal level) military training.
Movie version is at least slightly superhuman in terms of strength and durability - throwing large male humans considerable distances with a single hand, flinging them back similar distances with blows, bending steel, denting steel plate with punches (actually shown by Red Skull, but they're shown as equally matched for brute ST). Assuming he's not constantly using Extra Effort, call it ST somewhere in the 30s to low 40s. If you wanted to define him as no more than ST 20 to keep him arguably 'peak human', you'd also need Extra Effort and/or an innate ability to use Power Blow for higher effective ST.

If he's ST/HP 30-40, but only on the order of HP 12-15 for purposes of calculating collision damage (including inflicted/incurred by Slams, but also taken from falling), 'massless' HP being an option, that alone would make him more tolerant of long falls. Throw in some DR and/or IT:DR good against Crushing (to allow him brawling durability against comparable foes even without wearing armor or shield), a very high DX for use in Swimming and Acrobatics rolls to take falls in the best possible manner, and these feats seem very doable.

Last edited by vitruvian; 03-08-2014 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 03-08-2014, 11:18 PM   #33
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Default Re: Captain America Falling

The Marvel Cinematic Universe borrows a lot from the Ultimate Marvel Comics (for instance, the very sans-parachute scene that we're talking about. Over there, Captain America is explicitly a low-grade superhuman, not just the peak of human condition or whatever.
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Old 03-09-2014, 12:32 AM   #34
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Default Re: Captain America Falling

I was always under the impression that serum that transformed Cap gave him abilities around the limits of human physicality in pretty much every area (stamina, strength, coordination, etc.). It would then stand to reason that his ST, DX, and HT are all around 18+. At that level, it would only take a few points in Swimming to make his jump relatively sound.
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Old 03-09-2014, 12:56 AM   #35
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Default Re: Captain America Falling

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Originally Posted by Miles View Post
The Marvel Cinematic Universe borrows a lot from the Ultimate Marvel Comics (for instance, the very sans-parachute scene that we're talking about. Over there, Captain America is explicitly a low-grade superhuman, not just the peak of human condition or whatever.
The no-parachute scene also occurred in one of the X-Men cartoons (not the 90s one with the classic theme song, maybe X-Men: Evolution?). It was a flashback to Wolverine's sketchy memories of WWII (not that my memory of the scene is that great), and Logan and Rogers were being dropping onto a German prison camp (without parachutes) to lead a breakout.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:16 AM   #36
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Default Re: Captain America Falling

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The no-parachute scene also occurred in one of the X-Men cartoons (not the 90s one with the classic theme song, maybe X-Men: Evolution?). It was a flashback to Wolverine's sketchy memories of WWII (not that my memory of the scene is that great), and Logan and Rogers were being dropping onto a German prison camp (without parachutes) to lead a breakout.
Operation Rebirth, I think.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:49 AM   #37
Not another shrubbery
 
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Default Re: Captain America Falling

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Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
Movie version is at least slightly superhuman in terms of strength and durability - throwing large male humans considerable distances with a single hand, flinging them back similar distances with blows, bending steel, denting steel plate with punches (actually shown by Red Skull, but they're shown as equally matched for brute ST). Assuming he's not constantly using Extra Effort, call it ST somewhere in the 30s to low 40s. If you wanted to define him as no more than ST 20 to keep him arguably 'peak human', you'd also need Extra Effort and/or an innate ability to use Power Blow for higher effective ST.
Maybe you could just buy a few extra points of ST with Super-Effort.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:50 AM   #38
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Default Re: Captain America Falling

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Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery View Post
Maybe you could just buy a few extra points of ST with Super-Effort.
As discussed in the original writeup, there's no point in taking it for less than +8.
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Old 03-10-2014, 12:27 PM   #39
vitruvian
 
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Default Re: Captain America Falling

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Originally Posted by The Benj View Post
As discussed in the original writeup, there's no point in taking it for less than +8.
Which would be +40 when using Extra Effort, leaving this version of Cap's target ST firmly in that inbetween area where it doesn't do much good unless it's more than he really needs. Besides, it's not like he really seems to get winded when fighting for an extended period, so frequent FP usage for the Extra Effort doesn't really seem too appropriate.

He can grab and throw a full grown enemy soldier with no discernible pause, so without Extra Effort those soldiers need to be within his Basic Lift, at the very least. At ST 30, his BL would be 180 lbs, probably able to cover a lot of adult males, and his max lift without Extra Effort would be 1640 lbs, a lot but not as much as even a compact car. At ST 40, his BL would be 320 lbs, safely covering most combatants apart from sumo wrestlers and some football players, and his max lift would 2560 lbs, a bit more than a ton and maybe enough to allow him to lift up (but not throw) some smaller cars. I'd put him somewhere in that range, the main argument for going all the way up to 40 being the nice shock/healing multiplier.
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Old 03-10-2014, 01:12 PM   #40
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Default Re: Captain America Falling

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As discussed in the original writeup, there's no point in taking it for less than +8.
If we are building on a budget, sure. If we're just modeling a fictional character, there doesn't seem to be much reason to feel constrained in our choice of traits in the name of efficiency. Which is not to say that Super ST is necessarily the right way to go, but just an idea I tossed out there. If it's felt that ST 20, for instance, is a reasonable maximum given his build, then a few points of Super ST could model his apparent lifting and striking abilities.
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