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Old 11-07-2021, 08:03 AM   #1
Prince Charon
 
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Default Pre-Enlightenment Horror, Urban Fantasy, et cetra

There isn't so much a line between horror and urban fantasy, as an overlapping section on a Venn diagram, with bits of a few other genres overlapping there as well; often, the difference is in the capabilities of the protagonists, and how the setting is presented. In most such settings, the monsters & magic are not something that suddenly appears, they were there all along (there are exceptions, of course, but for a lot of those, it was more that they were mostly hidden until the stars were right/the mana tides came in/whatever). Thus, the settings included these beings in earlier eras when fewer people per-capita would refuse to believe in them (before the Age of Enlightenment, hence the title).

This, then, is a thread for discussing historical settings of this sort (e.g. Monster Hunters: Florence, which I'd call a Renaissance Urban Fantasy setting, though I haven't played in it), as well as campaign ideas, adventure seeds, items, creatures, characters, and so on, that don't yet justify creating a new thread for them. That includes adjusting more modern characters for earlier eras, though if you want to go into a lot of detail, a dedicated thread might work better.

This may not be the best thread for discussing why the Masquerade/Veil/whatever exists, but knowing whether it does and how it works can be pretty important (you need one to have already existed for the Age of Reason to be as skeptical as it was, and it should pre-date the Age by at least a generation if not longer, but it isn't as necessary for stories in earlier eras, and perhaps it's something that came in gradually), so if it comes up, it comes up.


To start things off, imagine a world where spirits are common and somewhat active, and spirit-based powers (including some forms of PC-usable magic), items, and monsters are common enough for the myth parts of mythohistory to be dangerously real, even if they aren't over-the-top, world-shakingly powerful. Grendel and his mother might be evil spirits (perhaps Embodied by ritual), or mortal beings empowered by them (given their deaths, I'd go with the latter; EDIT: Grendel's mother is sometimes depicted as a witch, so perhaps she empowered and/or Embodied him). The gods would likewise be spirits, either powerful individual beings or groups of spirits acting in a collective name in the mortal world.


Thoughts?
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Old 11-08-2021, 01:46 AM   #2
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Default Re: Pre-Enlightenment Horror, Urban Fantasy, et cetra

This describes The Dresden Files world, to a considerable degree. At one point the protagonist, the modern-day Wizard Harry Dresden, muses that the real history of the world looks a lot less rationalist and a lot more like the old fairy tales than most people ever dream. In fact, in the Dresden Files world, the Enlightenment itself was largely the result of a deliberate effort on the part of the major Wizards (though it got rather out of hand).

One thing about the reality of supernatural monsters, etc. on any significant scale is that if it is so, than the real history of the world is probably rather different than what we read about in the history books, and some of the 'fantastical' accounts of old-time histories might actually be literal truth.

So the first question to be asked about such a setting is: how close was the history we learned in school to the real thing?
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Old 11-08-2021, 06:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: Pre-Enlightenment Horror, Urban Fantasy, et cetra

One thing that frequently bugs me about "magical history" in settings is how it often accidentally justifies atrocities. I personally prefer that the Salem witch trials remain an out of control prank that caused a mass hysteria and killed two dozen innocent people, rather than a reasonable reaction to things that were really happening.
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Old 11-08-2021, 02:38 PM   #4
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Default Re: Pre-Enlightenment Horror, Urban Fantasy, et cetra

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
One thing that frequently bugs me about "magical history" in settings is how it often accidentally justifies atrocities. I personally prefer that the Salem witch trials remain an out of control prank that caused a mass hysteria and killed two dozen innocent people, rather than a reasonable reaction to things that were really happening.
In other words, don't execute people because a few screaming girls are also throwing things and posing in odd positions. (To avoid both arguments and a warning for violating the rules of this forum, I'm now going to avoid comparing that "trial" to 20th and 21st century American politics....)

That said, 17th century Massachusetts and Connecticut could be used in a campaign without justifying the trials. You could easily do a setting where the witches were using real magic to help others and the community, but had to do so in secret. And to throw in a curve, you could have some that were using magic to harm others. The authorities might well be out to punish them all.

If you wanted to keep the aspect of the girls falsely accusing non-witches of witchery, you could have either one or more of the prosecuting authorities be the real witch(es) or, of course, the real witches could be the screaming girls.
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Old 11-08-2021, 07:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Pre-Enlightenment Horror, Urban Fantasy, et cetra

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
To start things off, imagine a world where spirits are common and somewhat active, and spirit-based powers (including some forms of PC-usable magic), items, and monsters are common enough for the myth parts of mythohistory to be dangerously real, even if they aren't over-the-top, world-shakingly powerful. Grendel and his mother might be evil spirits (perhaps Embodied by ritual), or mortal beings empowered by them (given their deaths, I'd go with the latter; EDIT: Grendel's mother is sometimes depicted as a witch, so perhaps she empowered and/or Embodied him). The gods would likewise be spirits, either powerful individual beings or groups of spirits acting in a collective name in the mortal world.
Thinking a bit more on this:

1. The tale of Beowulf helps illustrate what I meant about the overlap between horror and urban or epic fantasy: King Beowulf was an epic hero and a modernized version of him could fit in some forms of urban fantasy, but before he came, King Hrothgar and his men were living a horror story.

2. Expanding on what I meant about the gods as possibly groups of spirits, it would be quite difficult for mortals to tell the difference between a single very powerful weather-spirit named Zeus, who is good at shapeshifting (and may have lesser spirits serving him), and an organized group of lesser spirits who all use the name 'Zeus' when interfering in the mortal world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
So the first question to be asked about such a setting is: how close was the history we learned in school to the real thing?
A very good point. I really think the answer would tie in with the Veil/Masquerade. I tend to imagine that most such settings are something like 'The closer you get to the modern era, the more accurate, on average, the history that actually gets recorded in the books is, though there are still things that get left out or misinterpreted.' The justification for this varies, but broadly has to do with the Veil getting stronger or the Masquerade being more strictly enforced (or both), as the human population expanded.

Related to that, perhaps something like the Skeptic perk (GURPS Psionic Powers p24 text box) works against the common powers of the setting, and people having it grow more and more common as time passes (perhaps just keeping pace with the population increase, or perhaps being more common per capita). Thus, the higher the population density in an area, the greater the chance that people who unconsciously disrupt powers will be nearby - in other words, the greater the chance that someone will spot you using powers, the lower the chance that you'll be able to use them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
One thing that frequently bugs me about "magical history" in settings is how it often accidentally justifies atrocities. I personally prefer that the Salem witch trials remain an out of control prank that caused a mass hysteria and killed two dozen innocent people, rather than a reasonable reaction to things that were really happening.
True.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alden Loveshade View Post
If you wanted to keep the aspect of the girls falsely accusing non-witches of witchery, you could have either one or more of the prosecuting authorities be the real witch(es) or, of course, the real witches could be the screaming girls.
For Salem specifically, I prefer the idea that there were no witches in the area at the time, but one or more of the accusers and/or judges being the real witch(es) is also plausible in such a setting.
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Old 11-08-2021, 07:22 PM   #6
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Default Re: Pre-Enlightenment Horror, Urban Fantasy, et cetra

Throw this into the pot. There seems to be evidence, not conclusive, but highly suggestive, that in London at least criminal gangs claimed and may have believed they were protected by the fairies. We know from trial transcripts that masquerading as a fairy was a commonplace stunt for grifters and con artists. Which means that belief in the fairies was so strong that actually meeting a fairy was seen by many as a realistic possibility.

There is evidence that belief in fairies and witches was common within London until at least the end of the Victorian period. Belief in fairies and witches among educated Londoners was normal until the late 17th century.

If you set your game in the 1670s, just as the Enlightenment is beginning in England, you can have fairies, witches, pirates, Fifth Monarchy Men (radical protestant political terrorists), alchemists, and early scientists all in your game.
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Old 11-08-2021, 07:41 PM   #7
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Default Re: Pre-Enlightenment Horror, Urban Fantasy, et cetra

I put together a campaign seed for my next prospectus that fits this a bit, based on the GURPS Cabal setting:

Quote:
The Knights Templar have fallen. Now the fanatical cultists that rotted it from within flee across the sea to the refuge of the unknown Americas, while those knights who remained loyal and true hide in the shadows of Europe from the inquisition and their many other enemies.

It is a dark winter in Paris. The year is 1308, and the King of France has arrested most of your fellow knights of the Order of the Temple. You must evade the inquisitors of the King… and their secretive Faerie masters. For this is not a simple power play by an indebted king; it is the latest battle in the great, secret War of the Elm as the Fae Lord Garravin tries to bring all his mortal rivals to heel. You have lost this battle, but you have not lost the war - yet. Marshall your blades, your spells, and your allies. Will you pursue traitor brother-knights across the great sea to the Templar refuge? Will you treat with the ghouls of the Parisian underworld for secrets, risking corruption for strength? Will you fight against or alongside the witch-hunting papal Brotherhood of St. Leo, as the changing battlefield demands? Will you dare to take the battle to Garravin’s own lands, the whispering yew groves and moonlit greenswards of Faerie?

Elevator pitch: You are loyal members (and associates) of the Knights Templar trying to find survival, vengeance, or redemption as the Order is destroyed from inside by crystal skull cultists and outside by Faerie catspaws.
PCs are either loyal Knights, traitor Knights, Leonines, or agents of Garravin. These lead to very different campaigns…
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Old 11-08-2021, 08:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
Throw this into the pot. There seems to be evidence, not conclusive, but highly suggestive, that in London at least criminal gangs claimed and may have believed they were protected by the fairies. We know from trial transcripts that masquerading as a fairy was a commonplace stunt for grifters and con artists. Which means that belief in the fairies was so strong that actually meeting a fairy was seen by many as a realistic possibility.
Huh. I'm pretty sure that I hadn't known that. Neat!

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Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
There is evidence that belief in fairies and witches was common within London until at least the end of the Victorian period. Belief in fairies and witches among educated Londoners was normal until the late 17th century.
That part I was somewhat aware of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
If you set your game in the 1670s, just as the Enlightenment is beginning in England, you can have fairies, witches, pirates, Fifth Monarchy Men (radical protestant political terrorists), alchemists, and early scientists all in your game.
Could get very exciting, and is an era well-recorded by historians, which would help the GM doing research while setting it all up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post
I put together a campaign seed for my next prospectus that fits this a bit, based on the GURPS Cabal setting:
Also quite interesting, and yes, it does fit.
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Old 11-08-2021, 08:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Pre-Enlightenment Horror, Urban Fantasy, et cetra

In deference to the character limit, I'm putting this guy in a separate post:

Halfdan Olavsson, 888 CE

Age: 16

Attributes

ST 12/16 [20]; DX 11 [20]; IQ 9 [-20]; HT 10 [0]

Secondary Characteristics

HP 12; Will 10 [5]; Per 11 [10]; FP 12 [6]

Social Background

Languages: Old Norse (Native/Illiterate) [-3]; Old Saxon (Accented/Illiterate) [2]; Old Frisian (Accented/Illiterate) [2]; Old English (Broken/Illiterate) [1]; Old French (Broken/Illiterate) [1].

TL: 3^

Cultural Familiarity: Old Norse [0].

Subtotal: 44


Advantages

Combat Reflexes [15]
Fearlessness 3 [6]
Fit [5]
Rank 0 [0]

Stóröxi Brjálćđisins (The Greataxe of Madness; Breakable, DR10, -10%, SM-1, -20%; Can Be Stolen by ST, -30%; Unique, -25%; see Notes) [20]

Perks

Alcohol Tolerance. [1]
Good Neighbor. [1]
No Hangover. [1]
Penetrating Voice. [1]
Strong Blade. [1]

Subtotal: 51


Disadvantages

Bad Temper (15) [-5]
Code of Honor (Nordic) [-10]
Impulsiveness (9) [-15]
Nightmares (12) [-5]
Obsession (9) (keep Stóröxi Brjálćđisins) [-8]
Overconfidence (12) [-5]

Quirks

Claims to be descended from Freyr. [-1]
Defensive about his thin beard. [-1]
Likes dogs. [-1]
Only trains alone. [-1]
Prefers mead when he can get it. [-1]

Subtotal: -52


Skills

Animal Handling (Canines) [IQ/A] [2] 9
Axe/Mace [DX/A] [2] 11
Brawling [DX/E] [4] 13
Carousing [HT/E] [1] 10
Climbing [DX/A] [2] 11
Jumping [DX/E] [1] 11
First Aid/TL3^ [IQ/E] [1] 9
Forced Entry [DX/E] [2] 12
Hiking [HT/A] [4] 11
Intimidation [Will/A] [4] 11
Knife [DX/E] [2] 12
Lifting [HT/A] [2] 10
Running [HT/A] [4] 11
Scrounging [Per/E] [1] 11
Seamanship/TL3^ [IQ/E] [2] 10
Soldier [IQ/A] [4] 10
Survival (Island/Beach) [Per/A] [2] 11
Two-Handed Axe/Mace [DX/A] [12] 14 (16)

Techniques

Kicking (H) Brawling-2 [2] 12
Knee Strike (A) Brawling-1 [1] 13

Back Strike (H) Two-Handed Axe/Mace-2 [0] 12 (14)
Close Combat (H) Two-Handed Axe/Mace-8 [4] 9 (15)
Disarming (H) Two-Handed Axe/Mace [2] 15 (17)
Hook (H) Two-Handed Axe/Mace-5 [2] 9 (11)

Subtotal: 61

Total: 104


Equipment

Boots
Clothes
Lootbag
Personal basics
Stóröxi Brjálćđisins
Knife
Gambeson, DR1*
Byrnie, DR5*
Padded hood, DR1*
Spangenhelm, DR5

Notes

Skill and technique levels in parentheses are the levels granted by the cursed greataxe.

Halfdan and his axe should fit with minimal adjustment to any Low-Tech fantasy setting that includes both spirit magic and a sufficiently Vikingesque culture (and shouldn't need much more adjustment for settings with most other sorts of magic). I would describe their base setting as 'early medieval mythohistory,' or 'Viking Age historical-with-spirit-magics.' His spangenhelm has a nasal and spectacles, cheekguards, and a lobsterback, but does not have horns, because his father convinced him that it was a very stupid idea (if he were stubborn, he'd probably have insisted on it anyway, but he'd be the only viking wearing them); instead, the helm is decorated with simple pictures of horns on either side, which didn't cost too much extra.

Halfdan's family line has a tendency toward minor spirit-granted abilities which are said to stem from Freyr, who allegedly is his grandfather's grandfather. (If anyone isn't sure, Good Neighbor and Strong Blade both come from GURPS Psionic Powers, but here are based on Spirit rather then Probability Alteration and Psychokinesis.) It's fortunate that Halfdan has a number of brothers, because after taking up Stóröxi Brjálćđisins, he isn't likely to have children that outlive him.

He has low Rank and no Reputation because he hasn't earned them yet, being a sixteen-year-old who has only fought in one battle: His own greataxe (cheap, because with the nice armour and impressive helmet he couldn't afford better, and he was expecting Strong Blade to compensate) was broken by a berserker with a much better greataxe, and then his life was saved when the berserker was shot in the eye by a lucky arrow. Immediately, he took up the dead enemy's greataxe, never thinking that it might not be the wisest idea. (He also has Rank 0 because he's an impulsive, overconfident idiot.)

He was built partly using the Soldier template from GURPS Historical Folks p103 (and the 4e conversion hosted at RPK's MyGURPS.com, pp43-44, which provides the Heavy Infantry lens). Because he goes i-viking, I also had a look at the Sailor template (p97 in 3e, p41 in 4e). Being heavy infantry, he's not a good swimmer. This is a a more toned down version of a character posted elsewhere, more appropriate for a Horror or other Secret Magic/Low Magic sort of game (specifically, the setting suggested for Beowulf above, though centuries after Beowulf's death). I considered trimming off four points (e.g. by reducing Fearlessness and/or adding a minor disad) for aesthetic reasons, but decided that this will do.


Stóröxi Brjálćđisins (The Greataxe of Madness) [98 points]
Haunted by the tormented ghosts of previous wielders and decorated in gold stolen from a king, this fine Nordic great axe was commissioned by Vali the Mad, from a Lapplander blacksmith with a reputation for wizardry (more so than average for the Lapps). Vali then murdered the smith so that he wouldn't have to pay him, but the wizard lived long enough to curse the weapon. When the axe is merely being carried, whether in the hand or not, the advantages do not apply, nor do the temporary disadvantages (though the Divine Curse works its dark magic continuously, if slowly); only when it is being used, whether for attack or intimidation (or even training if there is anyone nearby when he does so), do the advantages and temporary disadvantages activate. When the axe is no-longer being used, the advantages are no-longer available. Note also that damage that has already been reduced by Injury Tolerance does not increase when the advantage ends; on the other hand, a wielder who is injured badly enough will suddenly have to make consciousness and survival rolls without the bonus - many's the holder of Stóröxi Brjálćđisins who wins a battle, and then immediately falls down stone dead.

Like Halfdan, many wielders of the Greataxe of Madness suffer from nightmares brought on by the ghosts bound to the blade. More sensitive holders may also hear phantom voices, or even take up personality traits from some of the more strong-willed spirits.

The Obsession comes from the axe, but is listed as part of the character, as it is heavily imprinted on the owner - if he ever loses the axe and survives, he will instead become obsessed with getting it back, even if it's lost at sea, and if he fell overboard, it is likely that he would refuse to give up the greataxe, even as he drowned (this happened to a previous holder; the haft still has faint marks from where a shark bit it, and then swam around unable to open its jaw for fear of losing the weapon, until it starved to death and washed ashore, axe still clutched in its deathgrip). The self-control rating of the Obsession grows worse with time, more swiftly the weaker the holder's will is.

The curse will make the wielder's reputation grow worse and worse, likewise driving away (or killing, often at his own hands) the wielder's friends and loved ones, until none are left.

Statistics:
Advantages
Daredevil (Temporary Disadvantage: Berserk (12) w/ Battle Rage, -15%; Spirit, -10%) [11]
Extra ST without HP (Temporary Disadvantage: Berserk (12) w/ Battle Rage, -15%; Spirit, -10%) 4 [24]
Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction (Temporary Disadvantage: Lifebane, -10%; Spirit, -10%) 2 [38]
Hard to Kill (Temporary Disadvantage: Lifebane, -10%; Spirit, -10%) 5 [8]
Hard to Subdue (Temporary Disadvantage: Lifebane, -10%; Spirit, -10%) 5 [8]

Disadvantage
Divine Curse ('Die unmourned.'; Spirit, -10%) [-9]

Skills and techniques (Temporary Disadvantage: Berserk (12) w/ Battle Rage, -15%; Spirit, -10%) [18]
Two-Handed Axe/Mace [DX/A] [8] skill+2
Close Combat (H) Two-Handed Axe/Mace-8 [4] technique+4
Retain Weapon (Two-Handed Axe/Mace) (H) Two-Handed Axe/Mace [6] skill+5
Targeted Attack (Axe/Mace Swing/Neck) (H) Two-Handed Axe/Mace-5 [6] at skill


Thoughts?
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Warning, I have the Distractible and Imaginative quirks in real life.

"The more corrupt a government, the more it legislates."
-- Tacitus

Five Earths, All in a Row. Updated 12/17/2022: Apocrypha: Bridges out of Time, Part I has been posted.
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Old 11-08-2021, 10:06 PM   #10
Alden Loveshade
 
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Default Re: Pre-Enlightenment Horror, Urban Fantasy, et cetra

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
There is evidence that belief in fairies and witches was common within London until at least the end of the Victorian period. Belief in fairies and witches among educated Londoners was normal until the late 17th century.
Also keep in mind that a clear-cut distinction between elves and fairies is a relatively modern invention (as a certain recently released GURPS supplement discusses). For example, Edmund Spenser's late 16th century The Faerie Queene uses the terms "elf" and "fairy" interchangeably. In more modern times, the photos of the Cottingley Fairies were believed to be real in the early 20th century. So yeah, elves, fairies, gnomes, brownies, etc. could work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
If you set your game in the 1670s, just as the Enlightenment is beginning in England, you can have fairies, witches, pirates, Fifth Monarchy Men (radical protestant political terrorists), alchemists, and early scientists all in your game.
Alchemy, which early on was a blend of natural philosophy and protoscience, was practiced in China, Europe, India, and the Muslim world. It goes back at least as far as the First Century A.D. So yes, that could work in just about any pre-Enlightenment campaign.
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