Sliding - are there any constraints, official or recommended?

[Sam Mitschke]

Sliding "back-and-forth" implies that you are returning to your starting position. That's not what's happening, though, right? And you aren't partially sliding, I presume (you have to move the full distance on the turning key for a slide).

At speed 3, you should expect an average of 1 skid per slide. It's a great way to artificially slow down (two zig-zagging slides translate to roughly 75% of a car-length, but you've risked control to do that), but it isn't free, and it would be a Bad Decision to do that repeatedly/predictably when playing with smart opponents.

I'm not following what the problem is. I've heard Magesmiley's argument about mines being too easy to avoid, but I'd argue that more likely correlates to (1) the size of the mines or (2) the way the are dropped, rather than being a problem with the slide maneuver.

[Magesmiley]

Originally Posted by Sam Mitschke

I'm not following what the problem is. I've heard Magesmiley's argument about mines being too easy to avoid, but I'd argue that more likely correlates to (1) the size of the mines or (2) the way the are dropped, rather than being a problem with the slide maneuver.

It's the size (and shape) more than the placement. Well, that combined with the lack of chokepoints in wide-open arenas. If the mine is more than about a quarter inch away from your front bullnose, you can slide one way or another to get around it. Dropping one within a quarter inch of another vehicle, having enough space to legally place the mine (not overlapping), and doing so after your last move and their last move is fairly difficult. Doubly so if you don't want to collide with the other car. A side-mounted dropped weapon combined with it can somewhat help, but you're stuck using both of your crews' attacks doing that and sinking more points into dropped weapons, very sub-optimal.

Keep in mind that the back bullnose isn't as large and angled too (much less the sides with no bullnose), which places cars at a serious risk of a collision causing them to hit their own mines. And you'll be sitting next to the mines next turn until you move. Shoving a vehicle into mines (or other damaging dropped weapons) tips the damage in favor of the player causing the collision, making it usually worthwhile.

Myself, I've concluded that between the ease of dodging them and the risks of being shoved onto them, that they just aren't a good choice.

The older editions had a central and surrounding square effect for spikes and mines (1/2" for the main counter + 1/4" on each side of that). Neither was guaranteed to have an effect, but it made them a threat in a square area a car length wide. While the 6E mines always go off, their area of effectiveness is miniscule by comparison.

The 4E threatened area scaled up to 6E would be 9 square inches. The 6E mines have a diameter of about .75 inches (and a radius of only .375 inches), which yields .44 square inches. Yes, they affect an area 1/18 of the 4E size. That's less than a single square at the old scale.

I *think* that what I'd rather see is a card used instead of the tokens. Give it an effect that if a car moves onto it, roll some dice that are fairly swingy (probably the whites) and apply the damage to the arc of the vehicle that has the biggest overlap. If it causes 3 or more hits, remove the card from the play area. Use the wrenches for special effects, converting excess normally.

[Sam Mitschke]

That's what I meant about adjusting the way mines are dropped — the issues you're encountering can be addressed with some simple house rules (dropping them during the movement phase, for example), but none of those issues point to the slide maneuver being problematic.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by Magesmiley

I've concluded that between the ease of dodging them and the risks of being shoved onto them, that they just aren't a good choice.

Given how epically overpowered DWs were in OG CW....

[Sam Mitschke]

I've typically used mines in two ways: (1) peppering the field when dropping them isn't in close quarters with an opponent, or (2) as a deterrent, so a potential rammer will hit the mine first. I would never drop a mine when I could easily be pushed back into it. Maybe it's just a matter of adjusting expectations of mines for 6e?

But the original post was about the slide maneuver being a problem, so I'd like to understand that better, especially if there's something that truly needs fixing.

[HeatDeath]

It's worth noting that 6e drop weapons are only 1 BP. A 1 BP Slug weapon is expected to throw 1.67 points per shot, but that's before defense. Against a maneuvering enemy, it's gonna deliver substantially less than that.

[Calculations here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing ]

A mine does 2 damage points if it hits, and cannot be defended against.

[EDIT: 3 damage, actually. A concussion mine is 2 damage and 2 control. A fire mine is 2 damage, a control, and a fire [which in most contexts is either 1 damage or 2 control, from which we can derive that 1 damage is considered to be equal to 2 control for weapon balancing purposes. Interesting.]

If you drop four mines in the course of a game, and only one of them ends up delivering damage, that's actually doing really well.

[Sam Mitschke]

@HeatDeath
Yep! We may have underpowered mines a bit for 6e, but the old ones were definitely overpowered and needed fixing. The 6e droppers are priced just about right for what they do — manipulate one or more opponents' maneuvers a bit (which is hard to value) and possibly deliver a bit of unblockable damage.

[HeatDeath]

The game is normalized for games of 5-6 turns in length.

A 1BP slug weapon that does 3 damage to another car [after defense] over the course of a game is more than paying its own rent.

Ditto, a minedropper has paid its rent handily after one mine hit. It may very well pay that rent successfully with no mine hits at all if it forces an opponenet to manuever such that you are spared a 2pt hit you would otherwise have taken [that would make it equivalent to the 1 BP ceramic structure].

You need to be clever and a little lucky to make it happen, but it's far from impossible. You admittedly aren't likely to win the game if you load up on nothing /but/ minedroppers, but then that's never been [or at least should never have been] the case in any version of the game.

[PresidentTwoeagles]

The last MiB demo I did was a race using a 3x4 tile setup with terrain levels and obstacles like the green and red barriers and some spike cards. The demo build I made had a concussion mine dropper, thermite grenades and linked shotguns (as well as an F and B rocket) so it encouraged drivers staying close. Out of two mines dropped one was hit (by me after going OOC and fishtailing into its path!) so it really depends on the scenario you have set up. Making someone get into the dirt or otherwise take a chance at avoiding a mine could sometimes pay off for you, the opponent, even if they avoid the mine because of a more favorable position or their avoidance caused them to go OOC anyway.