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Old 11-16-2012, 02:36 PM   #541
naloth
 
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
This is a classic case of over-interpreting the passage about disadvantages having to be disadvantages to get a discount. You just need to put it in the right order to see that he is disadvantaged:
It depends on the type of alternate vision. Infravision instead of normal vision is considered a 0 point feature, not a combination of advantages and disadvantages. In the case of Daredevil he has alternate senses that effectively gives him the equivalent of normal sight (other intermittent color blindness) plus his radar sense, so he never really suffers the disadvantage of Blindness. Now, DD's senses do get interfered with a fair amount (seemingly more than other heroes) so a mitigated version of Blindness seems reasonable though I doubt it would end up being worth many points since DD seems to mostly get the benefits of full sight plus a Scanning Sense.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:05 PM   #542
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
It depends on the type of alternate vision. Infravision instead of normal vision is considered a 0 point feature, not a combination of advantages and disadvantages. In the case of Daredevil he has alternate senses that effectively gives him the equivalent of normal sight (other intermittent color blindness) plus his radar sense, so he never really suffers the disadvantage of Blindness. Now, DD's senses do get interfered with a fair amount (seemingly more than other heroes) so a mitigated version of Blindness seems reasonable though I doubt it would end up being worth many points since DD seems to mostly get the benefits of full sight plus a Scanning Sense.
If that's what I had in mind for Daredevil, I'd agree with you. What I did with DD was give him Blindness, Scanning Sense (might shift it over to Para-Radar instead of Imaging Radar (No Intercept); same basic difference, though), and no other vision-like abilities.

His Radar enables him to operate in combat effectively, and gives him a 360-degree field of what's around him, but he cannot read print (except with fingers), nor can he see photographs. The skull on the Punisher's shirt could be a special case, but there, IF he senses it at all, it'd be the outline due to the skull being raised enough off the shirt to be visible. Otherwise, it's just a shirt to DD.

Folks can argue what they want DD to be like all they want, but keep in mind that I had to make a judgement call for Reboot!Daredevil. The fact is that the depiction of Daredevil's "radar sense" has varied based on the title's creative team, so there is no one consistent manner of how it appears in the comics. In some cases, he could not see a photograph or computer screen; in others he could. In some, his radar sense was just that: radar. In others, it was akin to passive sonar. I had to pick one, and I chose the one that works best for me.

Please, stop arguing over how he should be depicted. You're all right, but until you realize that you're all wrong.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:07 PM   #543
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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If that's what I had in mind for Daredevil, I'd agree with you. What I did with DD was give him Blindness, Scanning Sense (might shift it over to Para-Radar instead of Imaging Radar (No Intercept); same basic difference, though), and no other vision-like abilities.
Actually, I was responding to the idea of "packaged senses" where you take a combination of Scanning Sense and Blindness instead of directly to your DD write-up. It legal, but you suffer the drawbacks of being Blind rather than having them mitigated by your Scanning Sense.

Simple tasks that normally don't require rolls - such as facial recognition - will become sense checks. Radar (and presumably all the subtypes of radar) explicitly can't be used to pinpoint targets. The best you can get is a +3 to aimed attacks with Targeting but that doesn't do much to offset the -6 from being Blind. Vibration Sense can be used as an alternative location sense for attacking but there are a fair number of penalties associated with it.

If you're not assessing a lot of sense checks for simple stuff and combat penalties for being Blind you're really only treating it as being unable to read at distances further than arm's length (heavily limited Bad Sight - nearsightedness) and Color Blindness (-10). Together, this is probably worth a net -25 or so if the GM is feeling generous. It's certainly not worth the full -50 points for having full on Blindness.

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Please, stop arguing over how he should be depicted. You're all right, but until you realize that you're all wrong.
These comments have been rules based - what full Blindness and Scanning Sense (Imaging Radar) together are like - not whether DD should have one type of senses or another. It's not totally clear from your write-up but it seems like you're disregarding the disadvantages of being Blind by taking Imaging Radar. If you take both you get the effects of both: you're Blind but you can make sense rolls to determine features actively. You're at -6 in combat, though you can use Vibration Sense or aiming with Targeting Radar to help offset that penalty.
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Old 11-16-2012, 06:24 PM   #544
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
If that's what I had in mind for Daredevil, I'd agree with you. What I did with DD was give him Blindness, Scanning Sense (might shift it over to Para-Radar instead of Imaging Radar (No Intercept); same basic difference, though), and no other vision-like abilities.
Or to quote Matt Murdock, "Hey, Reed. What's that shapeless blob you're fighting?"

Reed: "That's no shapeless blob. That's my wife!."
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:45 PM   #545
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

The problem I see with using 360-Degree Vision + Colorblindness is that it lets him see the images on a photograph, television, computer screen, movie screen, or simply projected onto a wall, albeit in shades of gray.

This doesn't work for the character. He is completely unable to see such projected or printed images. Blindness + Scanning Sense is the only combo I could find that would permit him to act without a visual sense.

However, if I add Reflexive to his Scanning Sense, and a No Nuisance Rolls (Scanning Sense) Perk, how does that affect things (beyond the obvious)?
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-M and N-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:43 AM   #546
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
It depends on the type of alternate vision. Infravision instead of normal vision is considered a 0 point feature, not a combination of advantages and disadvantages. In the case of Daredevil he has alternate senses that effectively gives him the equivalent of normal sight (other intermittent color blindness) plus his radar sense, so he never really suffers the disadvantage of Blindness. Now, DD's senses do get interfered with a fair amount (seemingly more than other heroes) so a mitigated version of Blindness seems reasonable though I doubt it would end up being worth many points since DD seems to mostly get the benefits of full sight plus a Scanning Sense.
There is no alternate vision at work here. He is blind. He simply has a different sense that compensates so well he doesn't really need vision. A guy with no arms but who has Telekinesis jacked up so well he doesn't really need any doesn't take mitigators on No Fine Manipulators either.

You do have a point about sense rolls, but I think tbrock1031 has the right idea of adding reflexive and No Nuissance Rolls to get around that. Adding Cosmic: No Die Rolls is too powerful as it means he never has to make sense rolls for the given sense and I don't think it is that flawless.

Personally, I'd use Extra-Sensory Awareness for it. How much range does DD normally have?

Last edited by B9anders; 11-17-2012 at 04:35 AM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 05:04 AM   #547
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by B9anders View Post
There is no alternate vision at work here. He is blind. He simply has a different sense that compensates so well he doesn't really need vision. A guy with no arms but who has Telekinesis jacked up so well he doesn't really need any doesn't take mitigators on No Fine Manipulators either.
As a GM you can handwaive whatever rules you like, but I'm referring the the game consequences of taking those abilities. Unless you're your saddling him with all the drawbacks of being blind he does effectively have a compensating alternate vision that keeps him from having all the drawbacks of being Blind.

Bluntly by RAW that means -6 to all combat skills unless he uses Vibration Sense or Blind Fighting to locate his opponent (a fair number of rolls or the point cost to get them all to 16+ and buy No Nuisance Roll perks). He also cannot target specific locations (neither sense is precise enough) at all.

Radar explicitly cannot be used in this fashion: "You cannot get an actual image with Radar, or use it to aim attacks" (B81). At best Radar gives you a +3 for aimed attacks.

Edit: to your example about the TK guy with no arms. He's at the mercy of requiring concentration to use any of his TK. Grappling him shuts down his abilities. He will quickly exhaust himself if he tries to use TK to carry stuff along with him. He can't wield anything in the traditional sense and will probably be at a disadvantage trying to do things like shoot a gun. Basically if you enforce that's he has NFM, it's a serious disadvantage. If you hand waive the requirements for concentration and give him effective "phantom limbs" that work just like normal limbs for carrying, fighting, and wielding then he shouldn't qualify for NFM since the how he manifests his limbs are a special effect.

Quote:
You do have a point about sense rolls, but I think tbrock1031 has the right idea of adding reflexive and No Nuissance Rolls to get around that. Adding Cosmic: No Die Rolls is too powerful as it means he never has to make sense rolls for the given sense and I don't think it is that flawless.

Personally, I'd use Extra-Sensory Awareness for it. How much range does DD normally have?
By the time you buy up his senses, add enhancements, pay for perks, and other advantages you've already spent about the same amount as you would have by slapping some limitations on Blind that reflect that he only suffers from a few of the drawbacks of being Blind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock1031
The problem I see with using 360-Degree Vision + Colorblindness is that it lets him see the images on a photograph, television, computer screen, movie screen, or simply projected onto a wall, albeit in shades of gray.

This doesn't work for the character. He is completely unable to see such projected or printed images. Blindness + Scanning Sense is the only combo I could find that would permit him to act without a visual sense.

However, if I add Reflexive to his Scanning Sense, and a No Nuisance Rolls (Scanning Sense) Perk, how does that affect things (beyond the obvious)?
I agree with the first point. He has a few of the drawbacks of being Blind and that certainly qualifies as a disadvantage.

The problem with Blindness and Scanning Sense is that it looks like you're using the second to completely mitigate the major effects of the first and the rules don't support that. Like I quoted above, Radar cannot be used as a combat substitute to ignore the -6 combat penalty for being blind and he also could never target hit locations either, both of which are appropriate for DD to do. Most depictions show his senses giving him a lot more accuracy than any of the Scanning Senses or regular vision (with the Color Blinding and slight reading problem listed above) so it looks like having him operate at a penalty for being sightless doesn't work well.

Adding Reflexive, boosting your sense rolls to keep them 16+, and adding no Nuisance perks doesn't alter that Radar still isn't effective for combat. You would need some Blind Fighting or some alternate vision like ability if you're going to mitigate the effects of Blindness. I suppose you could use Detect to replace both Scanning Sense and his vision (as Detect has been approved for an alternate way to target foes and can be as precise, penetrating, and far reaching as you design it) but I suspect the end cost would be similar to buying Radar with a limited version of Blind.

Last edited by naloth; 11-17-2012 at 05:15 AM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:56 AM   #548
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
As a GM you can handwaive whatever rules you like, but I'm referring the the game consequences of taking those abilities. Unless you're your saddling him with all the drawbacks of being blind he does effectively have a compensating alternate vision that keeps him from having all the drawbacks of being Blind.

Bluntly by RAW that means -6 to all combat skills unless he uses Vibration Sense or Blind Fighting to locate his opponent (a fair number of rolls or the point cost to get them all to 16+ and buy No Nuisance Roll perks). He also cannot target specific locations (neither sense is precise enough) at all.

Radar explicitly cannot be used in this fashion: "You cannot get an actual image with Radar, or use it to aim attacks" (B81). At best Radar gives you a +3 for aimed attacks.
Which is why I wouldn't use radar, but Extra-sensory awareness, Imaging Radar or Para-Radar. Probably with "no intercept"(?). I know DD's sense is called "radar sense", but it doesn't function the same way radar does in GURPS.

Quote:
Edit: to your example about the TK guy with no arms. He's at the mercy of requiring concentration to use any of his TK. Grappling him shuts down his abilities. He will quickly exhaust himself if he tries to use TK to carry stuff along with him. He can't wield anything in the traditional sense and will probably be at a disadvantage trying to do things like shoot a gun. Basically if you enforce that's he has NFM, it's a serious disadvantage. If you hand waive the requirements for concentration and give him effective "phantom limbs" that work just like normal limbs for carrying, fighting, and wielding then he shouldn't qualify for NFM since the how he manifests his limbs are a special effect.
When I say 'jacked up' I meat suitably enhanced that his TK doesn't have these vulnerablities, whether with compartmentalized mind or independent enhancements on it.

Shooting guns, RAW, is not at all disadvantaged by using TK. Actually, Talent makes it potentially more advantageous. Although I think it'd be fair to rule that you can't aim unless you position the weapon in line if your sight to actually take aim.

Quote:
By the time you buy up his senses, add enhancements, pay for perks, and other advantages you've already spent about the same amount as you would have by slapping some limitations on Blind that reflect that he only suffers from a few of the drawbacks of being Blind.
Well, yay for the system then. If it comes out like that, it shows that it is indeed relatively balanced and can handle these cases without having to concoct a "ok, it is a scanning sense for a blind man, but we'll treat it like you can see and put mitigators on your blindness instead. And then take 360 vision and colour blindness on top of your blindness".
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:00 AM   #549
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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The problem with Blindness and Scanning Sense is that it looks like you're using the second to completely mitigate the major effects of the first and the rules don't support that.

yes they do. And there is really no good reason why it shouldn't either.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:40 PM   #550
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Default Re: [Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

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Which is why I wouldn't use radar, but Extra-sensory awareness, Imaging Radar or Para-Radar. Probably with "no intercept"(?). I know DD's sense is called "radar sense", but it doesn't function the same way radar does in GURPS.
Those subsets of Radar function just like radar except that Imaging Radar gives you a finer detail at the cost of range and Para-Radar is like Imaging Radar but works everywhere and is more difficult to intercept.

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When I say 'jacked up' I meat suitably enhanced that his TK doesn't have these vulnerablities, whether with compartmentalized mind or independent enhancements on it.
By the time you spend a hundred point or more on enhancements and advantages to negate a -50 point disadvantage, you haven't really gained much. The problem specifically with Scanning Sense and Blind costing less than Vision (as a package deal), ignoring the biggest drawbacks of being Blind, ending up with an arguably superior sense, and it ending up costing a bit less.

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Shooting guns, RAW, is not at all disadvantaged by using TK. Actually, Talent makes it potentially more advantageous. Although I think it'd be fair to rule that you can't aim unless you position the weapon in line if your sight to actually take aim.
Presuming you have enough TK to properly wield the weapon, it's still fired as though you're holding it. Any DX purchased with NFM, obviously won't help here (as the limitation means that that DX doesn't help with fine motor control/device manipulation). Assuming, of course, that you have a Guns skill at all (hard to learn without manipulators). You'll likely also have additional range penalties (you to the gun, gun to the target) since it's awkward trying to fire a gun when you're not on one end of it. Using the sights would be impossible without senses you could put at the end of the sights. Aiming is also questionable since you can't Concentrate (required to hold and manipulate the gun) and Aim unless you can manage multiple maneuvers. For a powerful TK, it's easier to throw some rocks or a heavy object.

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Well, yay for the system then. If it comes out like that, it shows that it is indeed relatively balanced and can handle these cases without having to concoct a "ok, it is a scanning sense for a blind man, but we'll treat it like you can see and put mitigators on your blindness instead. And then take 360 vision and colour blindness on top of your blindness".
Personally I think the path of "Blind, but has a super sense that allows him to ignore the combat penalties and target normally -50%" is a lot easier to understand than trying to add enhancements for Scanning Sense and work around the drawbacks of being Blind with other advantages.

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yes they do. And there is really no good reason why it shouldn't either.
I've quoted from the rulebook why Radar and it's derivatives wouldn't let you ignore the -6 combat skill penalty if you have Blind. That's big strike against the above statement ignoring all the other drawbacks that being Blind should also give you.

If you have another sense that mitigates many or all of the effects of being Blind, how can you believe it's worth points or even as many points as the full disadvantage? It's been a pretty fundamental principle if that any disadvantage that doesn't come into play (as the game effects describe) isn't a valid disadvantage. If you believe that a form of Radar (or other Scanning Sense) mitigates the game effects of being Blind, you should reduce the value of the disadvantage according to how much less of a disadvantage it is. Radar already has several advantages over normal sight. Giving Blind as "free" disadvantage points doesn't make any sense.
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