Tomb Raider style dual pistol reloading rig?

[HANS]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I'm somewhat fuzzy one how that stacks or doesn't stack with the speedloading perk, for one and for two hands. Could you help me get a 100% reliable and clear picture of the results/effects with/without each of perk/skill/gadget/two-handed vs. one-handed action, please?

Reloading a semiautomatic pistol takes three seconds (High-Tech, p. 87):

1. one to eject
2. one to retrieve
3. one to insert (and close the action to chamber a round, which I unfortunately omitted in High-Tech since it was so obvious to me -- and closing is only necessary if you completely emptied the weapon; ideally you reload with one still in the chamber).

A successful Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll reduces this to two seconds (High-Tech, p. 87), typically by doing 1. and 2. simultaneously.

The Quick-Reload perk (Gun Fu, p. 21, and Tactical Shooting, p. 39) allows you to reload as a free action (less than one second) if your Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll succeeds. This is mostly cinematic, but people have spent ridiculous amounts of practice to achieve sub-second reloads (watch Travis Tomasie do it), so it is possible. Note that Tomasie (IPSC World Champion) uses a magazine holder that is inconvinient for actual combat use, similar to a Speed Holster (Tactical Shooting, p. 72), and his pistol features both enlarged (and probably polished) releases and a Jet Funnel (Tactical Shooting, p. 74).

Reloading two pistols simultaneously is impossible, since Step 2 requires a second hand. You can do it with one hand only if the magazines are placed conviniently on the ground (watch this in Equilibrium) or a table (watch this in Zombieland; this also works in reality, I've done it with one pistol, although it is not a stress-resistant procedure and therefore useless in combat) or on some sort of contraption like the Speedload Magazine Holder (Gun Fu, p. 43). Again the normal reload takes three seconds, two with Fast-Draw (Ammo). The Quick-Reload perk isn't really set up for this, but I guess buying it twice would by fair.

Cheers

HANS

[mlangsdorf]

You can load two pistols simultaneously if you have the Akimbo perk (Gun Fu 17). So for two perks and two Fast-Draw rolls (one at -4 for off-hand use), you can reload both guns as a free action.

I'd make a Tomb Raider style dual pistol user with the following perks:
* Off-Hand Weapon Training (Guns Pistol)
* Off-Hand Weapon Training (Fast-Draw Pistol)
* Off-Hand Weapon Training (Fast-Draw Ammo)
* Akimbo (Guns Pistol)
* Quick Reload (Detachable Magazine)
* No Nuisance Rolls (Fast-Draw Ammo)
And possible Quick-Sheathe (Pistol). Draw, reload, and stow a pistol in either or both hands as a free action by making Fast-Draw (Pistol) rolls.

In theory, with those perks and a pair of fully automatic pistols, you could draw both of them, empty them both at a target, reload both of them, and restow them as a single All-Out Attack maneuver (or Attack maneuver if you also bought Dual-Weapon Attack). As a GM, I'd only allow that in a seriously over-the-top campaign.

[BraselC5048]

Well, HANS, here's the sketches. Front view, two cross sections at the same point, and rear view (looking forwards, so it's mirrored). It would work for a small very thin pistol if the users has small framed female type hands. Bigger pistols allow bigger hands by upscale the design. A big pistol with small or medium sized hands would be better.

http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/...ps36c023e2.jpg

Dropbox link, much easier to view the darned thing:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/n0zb4nzl8d...ster.jpeg?dl=0

[HANS]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

Well, HANS, here's the sketches. Front view, two cross sections at the same point, and rear view (looking forwards, so it's mirrored). It would work for a small very thin pistol if the users has small framed female type hands. Bigger pistols allow bigger hands by upscale the design. A big pistol with small or medium sized hands would be better.

Nah, I don't think this would work. You're very likely to hurt your hand punching into that box, I doubt that even if it works that it's fast (it's easier to hit a free-standing magazine than one in a box), and the whole assembly is much too bulky on your hips.

I wonder why you don't want to use the design that's been developed for the film (see Angelina Jolie wearing the rig here), which is the basis for the writeup in Gun Fu.

Cheers

HANS

[BraselC5048]

Originally Posted by HANS

Nah, I don't think this would work. You're very likely to hurt your hand punching into that box, I doubt that even if it works that it's fast (it's easier to hit a free-standing magazine than one in a box), and the whole assembly is much too bulky on your hips.

I wonder why you don't want to use the design that's been developed for the film (see Angelina Jolie wearing the rig here), which is the basis for the writeup in Gun Fu.

Cheers

HANS

Err, I've never seen the movie, just the game, and the design moved farther away from the game the more problems came up. (It was all elastic originally, using two elastic bands, but needing an open rear for the hand scuttled that approach.) I also can't see where the magazine goes in the picture you posted. Likely a free standing magazine attached at the base just far enough away from your thigh to clear it with the gun and your hand would be best. The curve of your thigh would mean that each one would be at an angle, so it could clear the one in front of it, but at the same time, you need somewhere for a holster for the gun itself, so that likely drops the limit back to two per side.

[HANS]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

I also can't see where the magazine goes in the picture you posted.

The magazines are the black forward-pointing things on her hips, at the same height as her hands; you can see the little golden (brass) cartridges in the magazines. Yes, that means you can carry only one or two reloads per pair of pistols. Everything else is ludicrous.

Cheers

HANS

[BraselC5048]

Ohh, I see now. Was expecting them vertically. At least I have the advantage that the magazines and pistol are my hypothetical design for the smallest and most concealable pistol that can still carry 7 rounds and have a barrel long enough for Acc 2. Ideally it would be .40, but it's .45 +p instead as it's for a game set a couple decades before that round took off, and features spy work, so it's a bad idea to go around leaving bullets that nobody else uses. (As soon as the round takes off, they spy agency is going to switch to .40 and trim the difference in width off width of the gun.) The downside is that you still need room for a small holster, and that the people using it are small too.







Another completely unrelated firearms question for a completely different campaign in a completely different setting - what's the maximum number of .455 rounds you can fit in the cylinder of a revolver that's no more then bulk -2 using modern materials? 7, I suppose? Also, the Girard LeMat is bulk -3 and has 9 rounds of .42. I assume a decade-in-the-future level technology (TL 8+^ - works surprisingly well, actually, even for starships.) weapon of the same design could have 9 rounds of .455? And since that leaves space for a shotgun barrel in the middle, could it be 12 gauge, or would it have to be the historical 18 gauge, considering the advances in metallurgy?

Thanks.

[Kalzazz]

A major flaw of the dual machine pistol route is you are hitting with all the armor cracking wallop of a handgun. Your friendly GPMG like the MG34 is often a better choice for helping enemies realize they have been hit

[BraselC5048]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

A major flaw of the dual machine pistol route is you are hitting with all the armor cracking wallop of a handgun. Your friendly GPMG like the MG34 is often a better choice for helping enemies realize they have been hit

This is set before modern body armor was invented. Also, the special operators it's intended for are extremely well trained. Typical Guns: Pistol ranges from 16 to 18, and hit location techniques for the vitals and skull are nearly always bought off to the maximum level. The better shooters might buy off the eye hit location as well. Additionally, the guns are custom fitted, so Weapons Bond comes standard, for another +1, and are Fine (Accurate) with ammunition loading specifically tailored to each individual gun, for Acc 4. A .45 +pi round to the vitals (only -1 when fully bought off) is going to drive damage up, and if the range is close enough, accepting the -3 for a skull hit is even better. Shot placement matters, when you're using 7 round magazines and only have 4 to reload with.

Still, they usually go the single pistol route, and this particular shooter, going quite strictly from Tactical Shooting, is "one of the best shots of their generation," skill 20 or so, not including Weapon Bond, and that's intentional. She can often afford to give up the +4 from aiming, although there's still plenty of times when drawing only one of them is better. Her social skills are terrible, though.

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

This is set before modern body armor was invented.

Yet, even at that time special forces (and armies in general) used weapons like the MG34.