Tomb Raider style dual pistol reloading rig?

[BraselC5048]

EDIT: Forgot to add, it's for using dual pistols, one in each hand, and allows reloading one handed, while the other hand can continue holding the other gun, or simply reload at the same time. That's the point of this rig. Makes a big difference, that was a big thing to forgot.

The rig she uses (in the game, not the move, that's completely impractical) consists of a magazine strapped to each side of the thigh. To reload, first eject the magazine (gun likely modified so you can trip it without having to move your hand or needing to use the other one), accompanied by a jerk to help ensure it comes out. Then ram the gun's empty magazine down on the one strapped to your side, pull the gun up, and it's now reloaded. The obvious issue with this is what happens after you've already reloaded once. The game, by virtue of being a game, gets around the problem by simply having the magazine still there after you've reloaded - you have infinite ammo, and you wouldn't notice it unless you were looking for it.

In real life, I think such as system could actually work. The bands holding the magazine would have to be elastic and taped outward at the top so that the pistol's grip fits within it at the top, and then would push the band it outward to make room for the grip, and there would have to be a catch at the base to ensure the magazine comes back up, although on second thought, without being held by any of the elastic bands anymore, that might be completely unnecessary, since nothing's holding it to the rig any more. Probably the front of it would have to have a rigid cutout, perhaps a then strip of metal outlining it, for the handguard and barrel. The elastic would hold the magazine in from the front farther down.

The best way around the limited number of magazines problem is to have a couple of them next to each other, although that limits you to about 3 per side. 6 pistol magazines isn't that bad, actually. The rearmost two would have to be angled or stepped in some way so that the gun's handguard and barrel would clear the one in front. Although come to think of it, the curve of the thigh itself would do the job.

What I'm wondering is how long reloading using this process would take. It seems that it would be faster then normal. Perhaps one second to eject the magazine, and one second to ram onto the new one and bring it back up? And how the heck would Fast Load fit in here? 1 second, or still 2? Or would ramming the gun down and bringing it back up take 2 seconds?

The other question is in the case when you don't want to leave any magazines behind, so you would start with the front one empty, and they have a clip at the base to hold the spent magazine, so ultimately, if you fired all your magazines, (assuming 3 each side), you would have the front two spots with empty magazines and an empty magazine in the gun. You would only have 4 spare magazines this way. And how long would the process take then? 1 second to ram the empty magazine down and bring the gun back up, and another second to do it to for the loaded magazine? Or should it be 4? And once again, how would Fast Load fit in here?

[Christopher R. Rice]

GURPS Gun Fu, p. 43 has the "Speedload Magazine Holder."

[Icelander]

In real life, it's not unfair to allow Fast-Draw (Magazine) to allow reloading pistols. It's possible for anyone to load out like that, but the reason must people do not is that having Fast-Draw (Magazine) is mostly confined to trick shooters in circuses.

As long as you allow the skill without restriction, it should be pretty accessible for loadouts for characters.

[RobKamm]

Disclaimer: I've never played the game and only saw enough of the movie to realize that reruns of Hogan's Heroes were calling to me from another channel. (IIRC, it might have been Evil Overlords' Hidden Fortress Crashers on HGTV)

It sounds to me like the setting allows for Bullets, Beans, and Batteries (Action 2:7) and Infinite Ammunition (Action 2:38), either as defaults or available with a Rules Exemption Perk (Power-Ups 2: 20). Possibly waived because the GM liked the in-game explanation.

[BraselC5048]

Big oops - I forgot to add that it's for using dual pistols, one in each hand, and to allow reloading one handed, while the other hand can continue holding the other gun, or simply reload at the same time. That's the point of this rig. Makes a big difference, that was a big thing to forgot. Without it, reloading dual pistols IRL would be massive pain in the neck.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

Big oops - I forgot to add that it's for using duel pistols, one in each hand, and to allow reloading one handed, while the other hand can continue holding the other gun, or simply reload at the same time. That's the point of this rig. Makes a big difference, that was a big thing to forgot. Without it, reloading duel pistols IRL would be massive pain in the neck.

Sorry to be the grammar and spelling nazi but you're talking _dual_ pistols. You might use them _in_ a duel to defend your honor but using them two at a time is with an "a".

[ldj00]

Hello,

Check out some youtube video of tactical and sport shooters. Reloading with two hands can take less than a second with a practiced shooter (which I would assume is fast draw magazine kind of thing).

Competitive shooters have extensions added to the end of their magazines to make them easier to grab and add some weight, making sure they fall free from the gun faster/more reliably.

For the thigh rig to work, the magazines would need to be angled away from the thigh also... but you could not use elastic bands, as the grip of the gun could not slide completely down the magazine, which it would need to do to engage the magazine catch (to keep the magazine in the pistol and still not on the thigh rig or falling to the ground).

But someone with fast draw pistol and fast draw magazine would probably be better off ejecting the magazine, holstering it, fast drawing the magazine, putting the magazine into the pistol one handed, then drawing, and racking the slide one handed.

This person is able to do it very methodically in about 5 to 6 seconds. He purposely places his magazines right behind his holster to make reloading easier and faster.

Speed it up and I can see it being done in 2 actions, assuming successful rolls for fast draw magazine and fast draw pistol. 1 action to put the pistol in the holster and the other for putting the magazine in the pistol.

It would take lots of practice in reality (and in game a willing GM), but not as bad as other givens for some settings.

[BraselC5048]

Originally Posted by ldj00

Competitive shooters have extensions added to the end of their magazines to make them easier to grab and add some weight, making sure they fall free from the gun faster/more reliably.

For the thigh rig to work, the magazines would need to be angled away from the thigh also... but you could not use elastic bands, as the grip of the gun could not slide completely down the magazine, which it would need to do to engage the magazine catch (to keep the magazine in the pistol and still not on the thigh rig or falling to the ground).

I've already decided I'm using it in my campaign, so you can skip the technical discussion if you want.
I'm moving it down below the main question I'm asking.

What I'm wondering is what the reloading times are. Both for:

1. "trip magazine release (with the hand holding the gun in the normal way - requires modifying the gun.), and eject spent magizine using gravity and jerking the weapon downwards (both can be done at the same time, I wouldn't count tripping the magazine release as taking any time at all, since it just requires move a few fingers)"

2. "Ram gun with no magazine in it down on magazine holder. The magazine is now in the weapon and locked in."

3. "Raise gun out of holder and raise to firing position."

For that one, I'm inclined to consider the last two steps as the same one, both taking one second, while the first step takes one second, for two total. With a total time of two seconds, Fast Load can't provide any benefit.

If you want to keep the magazines:
1. "Ram gun with empty magazine in it down on empty magazine holder. The magazine locks on a catch on the bottom of the holder, and somehow or other automatically trips the magazine release (requires modifying the magazine for use with this rig." (or alternately, since you still have your hand on the gun in the normal position, do it by using the repositioned release like you did in the first procedure.)"

2. Raise gun with no magazine out of the holder just far enough to put it in the next one.

3. "Ram gun with no magazine in it down on a (different) loaded magazine holder. The magazine is now in the gun.

4. "Raise gun out of holder and raise to firing position."

Once again, I'm inclined to consider 1. and 2. as together taking a second, and 3. and 4. together both taking a second, for a grand total of 2 seconds this way as well. In both cases, then, Fast Load wouldn't do anything for something that short. In that case, I'm done here.


Technical Discussion:

That's why the front of the magazine holder has a cutout in the shape and size of the trigger guard and barrel, so that it clan slide all the way down. It's lined with a metal strip so it can maintain its shape. At the top, likely connects to another metal band running around the top of the elastic to hold the top part of it father out then the sides of the grip, so that the grip fits inside of it. The elastic material, by default, tapers to get narrower toward the base, even with nothing in it (there's physically less material around the perimeter of it going farther down). After perhaps an inch, the material's natural, no load state would be thinner then the magazine, so that friction would hold it in place. At the point where the taper inwards stops, perhaps an inch down, there probably should be an additional, less elastic and stiffer? band around the outside of the holder, so that up to there it will tend to stay tight around the magazine, but still stretchy enough that ramming the gun down will cause it to stretch and make room for the grip.

Humm, considering room has to be made for the user's hand, likely the clearances would have to be changed, and a slot cut in the back for the user's hand. In this case, the elastic band at the base of the taper of the elastic should be replaced by a piece of thin, flexible and springy metal, with a gap in the back where the slot is, so that it normally holds it together, but when forced apart, it flexes, only to spring back into shape when the gun comes back out. Come to think of it, to hold it together in that case, likely a strip of then metal going up the side of the holder, bent into a slight S shape when not under load, attached at the base (right side of the "S" outward, left side inward), so that when the magazine is in, the upper left half of the S is forced outwards to make room, putting it under some tension and creating the friction needed to hold it in. When the grip is rammed in, the curve at the upper left corner provides the angle needed to cause it to be forced outwards, and it snaps back into place when the gun is removed. In that case, there may not be a need for any elastic to do the work at all, just regular fabric. On the other hand, elastic fabric to a slightly smaller size then the magazine, at least on the front and back, would provide additional friction. Designing out loud here.

I can make some sketches and upload them later. I'm pretty sure it would work IRL.

[HANS]

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

1. "trip magazine release (with the hand holding the gun in the normal way - requires modifying the gun.),

No, it does not. Practically all TL8, most TL7, and many TL6 semiautomatic pistols have a magazine release that can be reached with the thumb and/or trigger finger.

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

and eject spent magizine using gravity and jerking the weapon downwards

Jerking the pistol downwards does not help . . . With those pistols that have trouble with positive ejection (eg, most Colt and Glock patterns), you twist the wrist to flip the pistol (and the magazine) to the side.

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

2. "Ram gun with no magazine in it down on magazine holder. The magazine is now in the weapon and locked in."

3. "Raise gun out of holder and raise to firing position."

Er. No. This isn't how it works. You need to close the action and chamber a round from the magazine after inserting first. Most pistols require you to hit the slide release for that (can also be done with the thumb or trigger finger, depending on design). A very few designs close automatically on inserting the magazine (off-hand I can only think of the H&K HK45, H&K P30, and H&K VP9).

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

For that one, I'm inclined to consider the last two steps as the same one, both taking one second, while the first step takes one second, for two total. With a total time of two seconds, Fast Load can't provide any benefit.

Reloading with a Speedload Magazine Holder (Gun Fu, p. 43) -- and yes, that is what this is, I wrote that thing specifically with Tomb Raider in mind -- takes two seconds. However, it absolutely does require a successful Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll, since the procedure takes quite a lot of coordination, which is exactly what that skill is about.

Originally Posted by BraselC5048

I can make some sketches and upload them later. I'm pretty sure it would work IRL.

I'd be interested to see it.

Cheers

HANS

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by HANS

Reloading with a Speedload Magazine Holder (Gun Fu, p. 43) -- and yes, that is what this is, I wrote that thing specifically with Tomb Raider in mind -- takes two seconds. However, it absolutely does require a successful Fast-Draw (Ammo) roll, since the procedure takes quite a lot of coordination, which is exactly what that skill is about.

I'm somewhat fuzzy one how that stacks or doesn't stack with the speedloading perk, for one and for two hands. Could you help me get a 100% reliable and clear picture of the results/effects with/without each of perk/skill/gadget/two-handed vs. one-handed action, please?