New to GURPs; not sure where to start

[Anders]

A good way to learn the system is to take some characters from TV and make a writeup for GURPS. The system is supposed to be able to handle anything, so take your favorite sitcom and conver to GURPS. I have done a writeup of the Bundys (Married with Children) for this very reason.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

A good way to learn the system is to take some characters from TV and make a writeup for GURPS. The system is supposed to be able to handle anything, so take your favorite sitcom and conver to GURPS. I have done a writeup of the Bundys (Married with Children) for this very reason.

Another one is trying to create yourself as character...

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

I have done a writeup of the Bundys (Married with Children) for this very reason.

Well, you started the thread anyway (or both if you also did your own)... I pride myself on my write-up of Kelly. :)

[Johnny Angel]

I'm bringing this thread back from the dead. I was going to start a new one, but I figured that it would be easier to just continue writing in the same one.



I'm far more familiar with GURPs than I was when I first started this thread. I still do have a few questions though.

1. I have seen a lot of threads which question the balance of the GURPs:Magic book. What issues are there with that book?

a) Are there other areas of GURPs which have balance issues?

b) If yes, what are they and how severe are the issues?


2. Is it possible to fight unarmed without training? I've noticed that all of the martial arts skills such as Brawling, Judo, Karate, and etc don't have defaults. Am I able to punch someone without training?

3. Is 1 Yard the default hex size in GURPs? I'm sure the rules state this somewhere, but somehow I seem to have missed it. In D&D the default square size is a 1 inch square which represents 5 feet. I've been assuming that the default hex size in GURPs was a 1 inch hex which represents 1 yard, but I'm not sure if that's correct or not.

4. How hard is it to play GURPs without a grid at all? This is a house rule I had been considering with my D&D campaign, but I think I might try to use it with GURPs as well. Instead of using a grid I simply allow the players to move in any direction they want; I use a ruler or a piece of string which has knots tied in it at 1 inch intervals...similar to how table-top wargames do movement.

a) If I use the "gridless" idea, what are some things I should be aware of; what are some of the GURPs rules (if any) that I may have to modify due to not using hexes.

b) Does GURPs have a minis line? I realize that not everyone uses minis, but the group I play with tends to use them most of the time. We have plenty of D&D minis; unfortunately, they all have square bases due to D&D using a square grid. If I don't use a grid this won't matter at all, but I'm curious about whether or not the square base of the minis will still fit properly into hexes. Are there minis which are better suited to hexes?


5. How hard is it to update old GURPs material? I have been considering purchasing the Low-Tech book from GURPs 3E, but I'm unsure about how compatible it is with the current product.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

1. I have seen a lot of threads which question the balance of the GURPs:Magic book. What issues are there with that book?

It's not that bad, it's just not as large an improvement over third edition as most everything else has been. Specifically, there are a few spells that are functionally equivalent but one will cost more to cast than the other, and a few spells don't have a damage type listed.

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

a) Are there other areas of GURPs which have balance issues?

Not really. I mean, it is possible to break the system, but the system IS internally consistent. Because GURPS lets you play anything, it assumes the GM will be there to tell munchkin players, "No, you can't do that in my game."

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

2. Is it possible to fight unarmed without training? I've noticed that all of the martial arts skills such as Brawling, Judo, Karate, and etc don't have defaults. Am I able to punch someone without training?

You can hit someone with a straight DX roll, or DX-2 for a kick. However, you can't do any of the nifty techniques like arm lock or back kick.

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

3. Is 1 Yard the default hex size in GURPs? I'm sure the rules state this somewhere, but somehow I seem to have missed it. In D&D the default square size is a 1 inch square which represents 5 feet. I've been assuming that the default hex size in GURPs was a 1 inch hex which represents 1 yard, but I'm not sure if that's correct or not.

Yes, 1 yard is the default size of a hex.

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

4. How hard is it to play GURPs without a grid at all?

Not that bad.

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

a) If I use the "gridless" idea, what are some things I should be aware of; what are some of the GURPs rules (if any) that I may have to modify due to not using hexes.

Just be aware of facing, and apply appropriate penalties for defending from attacks from the rear and whatnot.

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

b) Does GURPs have a minis line? I realize that not everyone uses minis, but the group I play with tends to use them most of the time. We have plenty of D&D minis; unfortunately, they all have square bases due to D&D using a square grid. If I don't use a grid this won't matter at all, but I'm curious about whether or not the square base of the minis will still fit properly into hexes. Are there minis which are better suited to hexes?

GURPS doesn't have it's own minis line, the square bases should fit inside a standard GURPS hex, I believe.

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

5. How hard is it to update old GURPs material? I have been considering purchasing the Low-Tech book from GURPs 3E, but I'm unsure about how compatible it is with the current product.

The Ludography has a list of which third edition products transition easiest to fourth edition. Much of Low-tech is usable with fourth edition, although the stats for gear and characters will have to be converted. What in particular are you looking for in Low-tech?

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

I'm bringing this thread back from the dead. I was going to start a new one, but I figured that it would be easier to just continue writing in the same one.

No problem!

I'm far more familiar with GURPs than I was when I first started this thread. I still do have a few questions though.

1. I have seen a lot of threads which question the balance of the GURPs:Magic book. What issues are there with that book?

The main problem is that there are some absolutes, that would cost infinite points under the Powers system. Also, there's the problem of created materials, that can quickly destroy the economy. In my experience, the former is not that problematic, and the later is simply solved, by changing such spells so that the standard version lasts only until the next sunrise (or sunset, or whatever, but max 1 day), and the permanent version costs 100 times more (so you can have orichalcum, but creating it is a lot of work).

a) Are there other areas of GURPs which have balance issues?

None that a healthy dose of common sense won't solve

b) If yes, what are they and how severe are the issues?


2. Is it possible to fight unarmed without training? I've noticed that all of the martial arts skills such as Brawling, Judo, Karate, and etc don't have defaults. Am I able to punch someone without training?

You can punch with raw DX

3. Is 1 Yard the default hex size in GURPs? I'm sure the rules state this somewhere, but somehow I seem to have missed it. In D&D the default square size is a 1 inch square which represents 5 feet. I've been assuming that the default hex size in GURPs was a 1 inch hex which represents 1 yard, but I'm not sure if that's correct or not.

1 inch->1 hex is the default, but you could really use any distance as long as you're consistent

4. How hard is it to play GURPs without a grid at all? This is a house rule I had been considering with my D&D campaign, but I think I might try to use it with GURPs as well. Instead of using a grid I simply allow the players to move in any direction they want; I use a ruler or a piece of string which has knots tied in it at 1 inch intervals...similar to how table-top wargames do movement.

You shouldn't have any problems IMHO. Now, if you're taking this route, and don't mind some extra complication, you could use unrounded move distances (that is, don't drop fractions from basic speed, and don't round after adjusting for encombrance)
a) If I use the "gridless" idea, what are some things I should be aware of; what are some of the GURPs rules (if any) that I may have to modify due to not using hexes.
[/quote]Things to look for, when playing gridless:
-area spells start at 1 hex diameter, and add 1 hex radius per increase in base cost (that is, for a radius 3 area, the actual radius is 2.5 inches)
-Carefully mark the fromt side of the mini, and remember that a mini has 180º of front, and 60º each of left, right and back sides. Shields only work for attacks form the front and from the side of the shield.
-You should use a scatter die like those used by wargamers, instead of using a normal D6 and check the scatter table

b) Does GURPs have a minis line? I realize that not everyone uses minis, but the group I play with tends to use them most of the time. We have plenty of D&D minis; unfortunately, they all have square bases due to D&D using a square grid. If I don't use a grid this won't matter at all, but I'm curious about whether or not the square base of the minis will still fit properly into hexes. Are there minis which are better suited to hexes?

there is the cardboard heroes line, but it uses square bases. In fact, you should have no problems with D&D minis, or whatever minis you wish to use. Only remember to carefully mark the front, sides and back

5. How hard is it to update old GURPs material? I have been considering purchasing the Low-Tech book from GURPs 3E, but I'm unsure about how compatible it is with the current product.

It depends. Low Tech, for example, could be mostly used as is, since that part of the rules has recieves minor changes. Now, Low Tech for 4th ed is in playtest, and it's real good, so you should wait for it. As for other GURPS books, most of them contain minimal rules-related material, and loads of information and inspirational material. NPCs don't need to be converted, since the major chances affect point value, and it's irrelevant for NPCs.

nitpick: it's GURPS, not GURPs (the S is for system, not for many GURP)

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

1. I have seen a lot of threads which question the balance of the GURPs:Magic book. What issues are there with that book?

I think the argument boils down to the fact that effects in the default magic system cost less in character points than equivalent effects using advantages, and that each spell is arbitrarily designed with a particular effect and style in mind.

If you only need a little magic in your game, just stick with the Basic Set. If you want to make extensive use of magic and feel that the basic magic system is more or less adequate, get Magic—it also has several variations in it. If you want lots of magic but you want to really get into the nuts and bolts of how it works, get Thaumatology.

a) Are there other areas of GURPs which have balance issues?

Everyone has his own answers to this. I suggest just trying it out and seeing what you don't like, and then changing it.

2. Is it possible to fight unarmed without training? I've noticed that all of the martial arts skills such as Brawling, Judo, Karate, and etc don't have defaults. Am I able to punch someone without training?

I knew the answer to this, but it took me a while to figure out how I knew the answer to this. You use DX as your skill for punching if you don't know Boxing, Brawling, or Karate. See the Melee Weapon Table on page B271.

3. Is 1 Yard the default hex size in GURPs? I'm sure the rules state this somewhere, but somehow I seem to have missed it.

The hex is defined as one yard on page B384.

4. How hard is it to play GURPs without a grid at all? This is a house rule I had been considering with my D&D campaign, but I think I might try to use it with GURPs as well. Instead of using a grid I simply allow the players to move in any direction they want; I use a ruler or a piece of string which has knots tied in it at 1 inch intervals...similar to how table-top wargames do movement.

I don't even use the tactical combat system, so I can't answer this from experience. If you want to use tactical combat without a hex grid, you'll have to judge a few things yourself, like facing and turning, but otherwise I don't think it would be hard.

b) Does GURPs have a minis line? I realize that not everyone uses minis, but the group I play with tends to use them most of the time. We have plenty of D&D minis; unfortunately, they all have square bases due to D&D using a square grid. If I don't use a grid this won't matter at all, but I'm curious about whether or not the square base of the minis will still fit properly into hexes. Are there minis which are better suited to hexes?

They're not for GURPS specifically, or for hexes in particular, but SJ Games makes Cardboard Heroes.

But really, any kind of miniatures you care to use should do.

5. How hard is it to update old GURPs material? I have been considering purchasing the Low-Tech book from GURPs 3E, but I'm unsure about how compatible it is with the current product.

The world books are usable more or less without any kind of conversion (except recalculating character points). The rule books and tech books are less usable, because of the many number changes. They're working on the new Low Tech book now, but the old one would give you a good idea of what kind of stuff you can have, if not necessarily the exact numbers for the fourth edition of GURPS. If you want Low Tech for lists of equipment, go ahead and get the old version. If you want the statistics that go along with that equipment, wait for the new one.

Many say you can use the old Magic book with the fourth edition with few changes. Other old rule books not so much.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

1. I have seen a lot of threads which question the balance of the GURPs:Magic book. What issues are there with that book?

That's a long and complicated topic.

Magic 4e is little more than the compilation of two 3e books, Magic and Grimoire. Although a few changes were made to update the material to 4e, the majority of it was left untouched, and some of the spell descriptions don't make as much sense as they should (for instance, Sunbolt - a laser spell, essentially - does impaling damage instead of tight-beam burning).

Some people feel that some spells are a much better "value" than others; for instance, the Rain spell creates a lot more water per point of fatigue than Create Water does.

Some people feel that some of the spells are simply too powerful as written, and need to be limited somehow; for instance, a variation on Earth to Stone can be used to create metal, and so you could presumably create giant gold bricks and become rich instantly.

Some people feel that the spells in Grimoire were too weird or powerful, or needed more playtesting, and didn't want to use them; now that Magic 3e and Grimoire are mixed together in Magic 4e, there's no easy way to separate them.

Also, people don't like the art. ;p

a) Are there other areas of GURPs which have balance issues?

b) If yes, what are they and how severe are the issues?

Magic gets the most complaints, by far.

It's entirely possible to create degenerate Innate Attacks and other powers that are incredibly powerful, yet still affordable.

As to severity.. you have to keep in mind that the authors of GURPS have no idea how their game is going to be used by all the people who play it, and their goal was to create a game that you could use to play any kind of character in any setting. So, it was written with the expectation that GMs would be looking over characters to make sure that they're appropriate for a particular game. As long as the GM is doing this, there's not much potential for abuse, because the GM can spot problems and say "are you kidding? you can't have that!" But if the GM just lets players make whatever they want with the hope that the system will magically keep everything balanced and safe, he's in for some surprises.

2. Is it possible to fight unarmed without training? I've noticed that all of the martial arts skills such as Brawling, Judo, Karate, and etc don't have defaults. Am I able to punch someone without training?

You can roll against DX to punch someone, or DX-2 to kick someone. Unless my brain's gone completely soft, you roll against DX to grapple someone. All of this is in Basic.

The problem with not having points in an unarmed combat skill is that you can't use any of the fancy techniques, and you can't improve any of the basic ones. I'm pretty sure Martial Arts goes into a lot more detail on this.

3. Is 1 Yard the default hex size in GURPs?

Yup.

4. How hard is it to play GURPs without a grid at all? This is a house rule I had been considering with my D&D campaign, but I think I might try to use it with GURPs as well. Instead of using a grid I simply allow the players to move in any direction they want; I use a ruler or a piece of string which has knots tied in it at 1 inch intervals...similar to how table-top wargames do movement.

a) If I use the "gridless" idea, what are some things I should be aware of; what are some of the GURPs rules (if any) that I may have to modify due to not using hexes.

You're likely to run into problems with facing and reach.. although, perhaps no more so than in those wargames.

b) Does GURPs have a minis line? I realize that not everyone uses minis, but the group I play with tends to use them most of the time. We have plenty of D&D minis; unfortunately, they all have square bases due to D&D using a square grid. If I don't use a grid this won't matter at all, but I'm curious about whether or not the square base of the minis will still fit properly into hexes. Are there minis which are better suited to hexes?

Not really.

Any minis will work, as long as they fit. 28mm works well for human-sized figures on a 1" hex map, even though it's not to scale; for multihex creatures, you'll want something that physically fills the number of hexes the creature is supposed to occupy.

You'll need some way to mark facing with any mini you use, but that's easy to do; characters that face forward can be said to face the hex side they appear to be facing; characters holding weapons out in front of them can be said to face the direction the weapon points, and so on. Minis with no clear "face" can be marked with a sliver of Post-It Note, a dot of paint, or whatever else you find handy.

SJG does put out "Cardboard Heroes"; these are paper minis that you print out, cut out, and fold. They're not for GURPS specifically, but you could certainly use them for GURPS.

5. How hard is it to update old GURPs material? I have been considering purchasing the Low-Tech book from GURPs 3E, but I'm unsure about how compatible it is with the current product.

I'll let someone else get this.

[Johnny Angel]

Thanks for the replies. Your answers were all very informative. I'll try to give my questions a little more context with this post; perhaps that will help give an idea of why I asked certain things, and possibly give some of the more experienced crowd a better viewpoint from which to answer some of the questions I may have or to just offer advice in general.

To get the hang of how the system works, I came up with a mini-campaign setting called The Iron Arena. Basically, it's just an arena in which I had combats between a few characters I created so that I'd have better working knowledge of the rules. As it stands, in this setting the general Tech Level is TL2. Currently magic does not exist. Mostly only mundane advantages and disadvantages are allowed, but the other types are allowed on a case by case basis. Things such as multiple arms are allowed, but very uncommon. The town in which the arena is located is the only area I have fleshed out, and it's essentially the center of the known world at this point. The cultures and languages are loosely based on the real world, but changed slightly. Most of the rest of the world is a fuzzy grey area and is only vaguely referenced and given some context from some of the backgrounds I created for sample gladiator characters.

To give an example, one of the characters is loosely based on a Native American warrior with a little bit of stereotypical fantasy Orc mentality mixed in; she speaks the Orokee language, and her background describes that she is a member of the Nomadic Orokee Tribe in the western wilderness of the world.

One of the first characters I created is Krog. Essentially he's a huge human who is almost closer to being an animal than a person. Some of his traits include Semi-Upright, Gigantism, Lunacy, and Ambidexterity. He also has the Trademark Disadvantage; he is compelled to urinate on someone after defeating them. When I started to put points into his skills I gave him wrestling and sumo wrestling. I didn't give him any of the more striker oriented fighting styles such as brawling, judo, karate; etc. When it came time for me to run a test battle between him and a different character I created, I realized that I couldn't use wrestling or sumo wrestling to punch or kick. I then wasn't sure if I could punch or kick at all because I looked at all of the skills such as brawling, karate, and things of that nature; they all have "no default." Skills without defaults say that you can only use them if you are trained, so I was unsure if I could punch or kick with this character at all. That was my reason behind asking how to attack unarmed if you aren't trained in a fighting style which allows you to do so.

Everything I've said so far is also the reason why I was asking about Low-Tech. I do have a much better grasp of the rules than I did when I first started this thread, but, since I'm still fairly new to GURPS, I wanted to play with the system without having to worry about guns and things of that nature yet. Low-Tech (from what I can tell) has a lot of types of equipment that would fit with what I'm currently doing.


A few more questions if you don't mind:

1) Is reach a product of size or does it change depending on the Size Modifier of the creature? For example, Krog has gigantism and a SM of +1. I know that he has more reach than a normal human, but I'm not entirely sure how much because I'm not sure if it is based on the actual size (height/weight) that he is or if his reach is based on his size modifier.

2) What are some good resources for a modern day game? Some of my group has expressed an interest in doing something similar to being a commando group, SEAL team, or something similar. I know they also have some interest in comic books, X-Men and things like that, and I think they'd like a few options similar to that. Essentially, I guess what I'm looking for is something similar to a superhero game, but more grounded in reality and not quite so godly or unbelievable....more Batman, Captain America, Punisher; less Superman, Magneto, Carnage. I think the best way I can put it would be to imagine if someone like R. Howard had written something like the X-men with his gritty and real style.

3) Are there any resources which give more attention to the topic of large scale warfare and things of that nature? I was a big fan of the old D&D setting of Birthright; I'd like to try doing something similar to that idea. Building castles...commanding a legion...etc


Again, thanks for all of the feedback. In some of the cases I think I know how things work, but it's always nice to ask someone who is more experienced with the product for help.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

1) Is reach a product of size or does it change depending on the Size Modifier of the creature? For example, Krog has gigantism and a SM of +1. I know that he has more reach than a normal human, but I'm not entirely sure how much because I'm not sure if it is based on the actual size (height/weight) that he is or if his reach is based on his size modifier.

Reach increases with SM+1 or more. See the box on page B402.

3) Are there any resources which give more attention to the topic of large scale warfare and things of that nature? I was a big fan of the old D&D setting of Birthright; I'd like to try doing something similar to that idea. Building castles...commanding a legion...etc

Try GURPS Mass Combat. I haven't read it, but it should cover what you're looking for.