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Old 01-23-2016, 11:53 AM   #131
smurf
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Default Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

Is it right to assume that a critical success of 6 or less to be irresistible too?
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Old 01-23-2016, 01:17 PM   #132
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Default Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
And that the distinction. If you rolled an equivalent of Dodge to avoid a spell or power instead of a quick contest
My suggestion here would be remove the duration of the spell based on the margin of success altogether, instead the caster invests more energy to make it last longer, similar to how a projectile spell has more invested to make it stronger.
In which case I would go with either the default energy cost is 1 minute, a basic starting point, or 3 minutes, since Fixed Duration +0% assumes that the margin of success was 3.
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Old 01-23-2016, 03:24 PM   #133
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Default Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

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The rule of 16 nerfs ridiculously overpowered wizards and afflictors. If a gm wants to prevent ridiculously overpowered characters, why not simply outline guidelines during character creation?

Although the magic system has legacy features that make high skill levels efficient in a point-buy sort of way, a character concept with such high skill levels runs contrary to how GURPS describes real world individuals and shouldn't be allowed without an unusual background and a reputation and possibly enemies (I.e. One should not have a 25 skill death attack without having practiced it or it being their defining feature long enough that there will be those who know you limitations and want to exploit them)

A character with a 25 skill level is probably the best at that skill in the world, possibly the greatest there will ever be. If they have a worldclass skill whose entire focus is to affect humans in a very specific way, To me, that means they shouldnt be thwarted because an unskilled human shrugs it off; and probably shouldnt be shrugg-off-able by anyone who hasn't been properly equipped through research, magical blessing, divine doodad, etc.

The resistance mechanic is broken to begin with. It slows down gameplay. It encourages raw talent over skill by inflating the importance of generic and vague statistics while deflating the importance of a character's background and journey. The rule of 16 makes it worse.

From the point if view of a player with a character who might be targetted by a resistable affliction, i want to be engaged in how to avoid the affects; i dont want resistance to be about "did i build my character with high enough uber stat and then did i win a contest of die rolls."

Example: the gm starts a greek mythology game. I am playing a greek hero with divine heritage and so the character has some high stats, maybe a 16 health. When i go in against medusa with the 25 flesh to stone spell or affliction, i dont want it to be my health stat that saves me. That is incredibly dull. The medusa as the antagonist with a skill 25 instant kill ability will be a great dragon to fight to provide conflict at the right moment because i will play out the hero's journey... I will journey throughout the land, learning how to defeat the medusa, picking up tools and chekov's skills to defeat the medusa... In game terms, if i fight the monster with the 25 skill death attack before i am prepared, death or similar cost will be my consequence. Thankfully, someone or something with a 25 skill in death dealing will have a reputation. The gamesmaster must make it clear that to face the creature means certain death before they are ready.

Now let us condider my playing the medusa instead. The gamemaster is running a slightly different game here obviously, but the same basic conditions apply. I am playing a creature whose instant death attack can only be stopped by a properly prepared hero. I can expect to turn to stone the unprepared, who should not get resistance rolls at all. I can expect that many will be aware of my limitations (again, a 25 skill means i'm famous) but in game terms that means those who arent turning to stone are facing my medusa blind. The medusa's journey, to be interesting, will also start with battles she wins easily, and with successive battles becoming more challenging until finally coming up against the prepared divinely equipped good choice making hero...

From the hero's and the medusa's pc's point if view, the skill 25 instant kill petrification is an irresistable force to be overcome at the climax of a story, not because the hero is "divinely healthy" but because he has gone through a journey of discovery...and it is time for that journey to pay off!
This is very nicely put.

I've been in a campaign like that myself where the campaign revolved around seeking out a defense for the seemingly unstoppable attack. Whether it was an object or something you had to learn or whatever, there was the sense of accomplishment that you earned the right to resist the supposedly unstoppable power.

I was in Gurps Old West game once back in 3e where the GM felt that one particular player (no, it wasn't me although I will not pretend I have never taken ridiculous levels of something) was taking ridiculous levels of pistol skill. the GM's solution was to double the range and fast-draw penalties in the game. In my opinion, horrible solution. In order to penalize this one guy down to a reasonable skill effective level, everyone else was handicapped to the point they would have to critical to hit anything.

My point being that I agree with you. Rather than some arbitrary rule, it would be better for a good GM to just say that he wants reasonable skill levels and state what the maximum is. If it's 16, fine. Personally, depending on the game, I might say 20 instead of 16. But whether 20 or 16, I would make it clear that you are just throwing away points by having a roll higher than that.

There are some powers that the roll is based on IQ. In those games, I would say the roll maxes out at 20 (because I don't want to arbitrarily say someone cannot be a genius with an IQ that high if the points level allows it). OR I might say that all skills and rolls max out at either 16 or the lowest skill level you can attain by putting one point into it.

Spells: IQH spells therefore max out at 21 (assuming the maximum possible IQ and a limit of Magery 3) which isn't that bad if Will 20 or Magic Resistance is allowed.

Another possibility would be to just tell people to restrict their stats to a level that a skill or roll isn't going to go over 16 by putting one point into it. So they are not wasting points.

The thing is, though, if I did that, it would be across the board.

Max skill roll in any skill, max Will, max anything: 16.

You bought Will 20? Tough.

Knowing people were restricted to a max spell or super power roll of 16, you went and bought Will 20 or a bunch of Magic Resistance or Mind Shield, etc.? You might consider whittling that down to something that effectively amounts to a 16- or 20 depending on where I draw the limit.

I just think it's better for a GM to state the limits rather than an arbitrary rule that, one way or the other, isn't fair to somebody.
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Old 01-23-2016, 03:46 PM   #134
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Default Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

I ran a psionic campaign once that had higher "Rule of X" rules exemptions that could be bought as an Unusual Background. If I recall, I used the triangular number sequence for the pricing. It worked out fine.

It was a while ago, but I think I had characters specialize their exemptions by power (e.g. Telepathy). To port over to Magic, one could require specialization by college. Or not. In retrospect, I'm not sure how necessary that particular balance decision was.
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Old 07-19-2016, 04:14 PM   #135
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Default Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

Okay, bit of thread necro here.

Does/should Rule of 16 apply to mundane skills?

I have a giant barbarian with lots of ST, a Perk to base Intimidation off ST, and thus an Intimidation skill of 24.

Should he also be limited to Rule of 16?

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Old 07-19-2016, 04:21 PM   #136
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Default Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

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Originally Posted by smurf View Post
Is it right to assume that a critical success of 6 or less to be irresistible too?
I have had a house rule for a while that a melee critical can be parried/dodged by a defense critical. Slight slow down in play, but adds tension nicely.
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Old 07-19-2016, 04:49 PM   #137
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Default Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

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Does/should Rule of 16 apply to mundane skills?
B.349 confines it to things that are described as a "supernatural attack". I'm happy enough with that.
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:51 PM   #138
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Default Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

Heh. We just play with our own Rule of 16. As written, except that the attacking power cannot be rolling against a number higher than 3 greater than the resistance roll. At 16 or higher, the Rule of 16 as written prevails.

Mook has Will 10? Your attack power rolls against 13. Gives them a chance.

And it cuts both ways. Mook Wizard has spell skill 12? Your Will 17 to resist only counts as a 15.
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:01 AM   #139
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Default Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

In my campaign I have also taken away the rule of 16. Instead, the resistance roll has become a sort of Defense.

The caster can lower his skill by 2 to lower de defense by 1 (with the danger of getting below the 5 skill levels and not getting the extra FP reduction).
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Old 07-20-2016, 04:41 AM   #140
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Default Re: Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

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Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
In my campaign I have also taken away the rule of 16. Instead, the resistance roll has become a sort of Defense.

The caster can lower his skill by 2 to lower de defense by 1 (with the danger of getting below the 5 skill levels and not getting the extra FP reduction).
The issue here is that +2 skill is 8 points, and +1 Health is 10 points. Well, actually, +1 Parry or Block is 8 points, and +1 Dodge is 20 points, so maybe that's not too crazy. And, once you throw in the lowered FP reduction...

Yeah, changed my mind while I was typing, seems fine.
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