Rule of 16 - What's the Point?

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by Leynok

If this is happening, it seems much more of the fault of the GM than the Rule of 16. If every NPC but randoms have a resistance of 16+, then either A) The GM failed to let the player know that the build they are going for in this game won't be very effective because of Setting reasons, or B) the GM saw Mind Control or whatever on the player's sheet and thought "Darn this is too good, I'll need to make each opponent have a high resistance so he doesn't take control of them all." instead of discussing the issue with the player.

Also look at it from the other prospective, if you bought up your Will to 16 or more, or other Advantages to make your resistances against Spells, mind Control, or what have you to an effective 16+, how ripped off will you feel when every other psionic, mage or so on constantly messes with you? Resisting such things is what you're supposed to be good at!

It does seem to be either/ or with it not being fair to somebody no matter which way you go.

My concern was always more in the realm of the characters that have defenses it makes no sense for them to have simply because they know there is a telepathy/ mind control/ illusion, etc., guy on the team. The brick who, for no particular reason, has a mind shield, etc.

Of course, there has always been a tendency to contrive things to prevent the mind reading, etc., sort of character from being as effective as they would most likely really be and I totally understand that because it can be a plot destroyer.

[Parabola]

Originally Posted by Leynok

If this is happening, it seems much more of the fault of the GM than the Rule of 16. If every NPC but randoms have a resistance of 16+, then either A) The GM failed to let the player know that the build they are going for in this game won't be very effective because of Setting reasons, or B) the GM saw Mind Control or whatever on the player's sheet and thought "Darn this is too good, I'll need to make each opponent have a high resistance so he doesn't take control of them all." instead of discussing the issue with the player.

Also look at it from the other prospective, if you bought up your Will to 16 or more, or other Advantages to make your resistances against Spells, mind Control, or what have you to an effective 16+, how ripped off will you feel when every other psionic, mage or so on constantly messes with you? Resisting such things is what you're supposed to be good at!

Also, depending on the points level, of course, it isn't that much of a stretch to have significant characters with a Will of 16. But, by that same token, it isn't that much of a stretch in the same situation, to have a person exceed 16 and be able to use it if it is his main thing. Definitely, 16 does not allow for even a Gurpsified version of Professor X.

[Andreas]

Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman

I think one important point here is "If he hits". The target gets to dodge punches from Strength Guy or energy blasts from energy blast guy, which gives them a decent chance of avoiding being hit. The Rule of 16 gives a similar chance to avoid being mind controlled, etc.

Unlike for resisting a spell, they don't necessarily have a decent chance. Strength guy could have high skill and use Deceptive Attack to make it very unlikely for the target to avoid getting hit. Energy blast guy could make it even harder to defend if he has a high RoF or he could make defense impossible even without having high skill if his attack has a large area of effect.

[Celjabba]

On the other hand, if the target is on the other side of a wall, both mr blademaster or mr blaster are out of luck, while the magic user or the mind controller are only slightly impaired.
In my games, I never saw the rules of 16 as an unacceptable handicap.

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Unlike for resisting a spell, they don't necessarily have a decent chance. Strength guy could have high skill and use Deceptive Attack to make it very unlikely for the target to avoid getting hit. Energy blast guy could make it even harder to defend if he has a high RoF or he could make defense impossible even without having high skill if his attack has a large area of effect.

Strength guy has to spend points on both ST and skill then, and has to have twice the skill advantage to get the same effect, because deceptive attack reduces defense on a 1:2 ratio of attack skill reduction. Whereas magic or mind control get a 1:1 benefit of higher skill.

High RoF and area attacks are both enhancements to energy blasts -- analogous to taking the "no rule of 16" enhancement.

[Nosforontu]

Originally Posted by Otaku

This is why I've tried to approach this from various angles though maybe I'm missing some since I don't agree? I get what the Rule of 16 is being used to stop, I just think there are better ways... most of which you've been telling me. Now put the shoe on the other foot: what about the irritations that arise because the Rule of 16 is punishing players and/or GM who are not abusing the system? Is there really a problem with a wizard that knows Rooted Feet at Skill 20 or 25 being able to stop most foes in their steps and do so reliably?

Overall I would of course their is no one true way to game or ref beyond making sure everyone at the table has enough fun to want to do it again next week with the same crew.

The thing that you may be missing from Save or Suck/Die spells is that they are much more typically binary in nature than attack roll is. With an attack roll you typically have three different basic choices for defending yourself actively. Then may further mitigate damage rolls by purchasing DR of various kinds to reduce the effect of a failed defense roll. Beyond that you can buy up hit points to reduce the chances of damage that leaks through the first of causing a crippled limb or major wound from taking you out of the fight, as well as purchasing High Pain Threshold to remove Shock penalties for the following round from damage.

With Save or Suck/Die spells you typically only have the one layer of defense the Resist Check or other similar abilities to prevent the spell from affecting you and nothing I can think of off hand that mitigates the effect on your character on a failed roll like armor and hit points can for a failed parry. Your flesh is turned to stone or it is not, if it is nothing you can do to mitigate or reduce the effect of the spell on you once it hits.

The Save or Die Spells don't typically have an onset time or some kind of tiered effect to them that gives the target a way to work around the effect while its taking hold. You are either Entombed in the Earth or are completely unaffected by the spell with no gradient of possible effects based on time or levels of success between the target and player.

Next there is the issue of number chasing with rule 16 uncapped. With a melee fighter I need to split my points three different ways offensively , improved Skill to hit to be able to get past active defense, Strength to bypass Armor and sufficient Move/Speed to both close on target and stay in melee range.

With a save or die specialist I need to split my points one way on the spell it increases my range, reduces the time for me to cast, removes the energy cost of the spell, makes it harder to dispel/counter, and with the spells resistance check uncapped it also allows me to probably guarantee the Suck/Die to always happen in play.

Finally damage is the expected norm in play for adventurers and they will almost always have an idea or mechanic for dealing with the injuries they take if they are running adventurers. Save or Suck/Die is a lot more variable to recover from (what you need to recover from Flesh to Stone is very different from being banished to another plane of existence, which is different from your best fighter being mind controlled and one shotting your priest/wizard).

Overall while I would like to see a bit more complexity in the rules akin to possibilities in the regular combat system, I don't think just uncapping rule 16 improves the game by itself but might be part of the answer if their were more ways to reduce the level "suck" on a failed roll in play.

[smurf]

The defensive will of 12 has a flat 25% of failure and an additional penalty of 4 against will of 16.

As an aggregate penalty the 16 is well in the lead. Throwing a 13 means to beat it the defence needs an 8 and so forth.

[Terwin]

Originally Posted by Parabola

Also, depending on the points level, of course, it isn't that much of a stretch to have significant characters with a Will of 16. But, by that same token, it isn't that much of a stretch in the same situation, to have a person exceed 16 and be able to use it if it is his main thing. Definitely, 16 does not allow for even a Gurpsified version of Professor X.

Sure you can, you just add a couple Afflictions (disad, Will -10 +50%, Malediction, reduced time, etc) and link them to your mind control. (probably less than 30 points each)

16 vs 16 with no afflictions: 50% success rate
16 vs 16 with 1 linked affliction: >70% success Rate
16 vs 16 with 2 linked afflictions: >90% success Rate
etc

Also, Professor X often seems to require several seconds to successfully control a resistant target, so perhaps he is just making new attempts until one of his 50% chances succeed.

[Lia Valenth]

Originally Posted by Terwin

...
Also, Professor X often seems to require several seconds to successfully control a resistant target, so perhaps he is just making new attempts until one of his 50% chances succeed.

which does not work in GURPS, because you cannot attempt again on a subject that has resisted for 24 hours.

Although there is an enhancement that can remove that: Cosmic (Ignore a Rule), +100%, it is unlikely to be allowed.

[Darkness]

I was curious, so I made a spreadsheet to determine the success chances of an attacker who's rolling against an effective skill of 16. The results:

Defender skill: Attacker win%
16: 45.35%
15: 54.61%
14: 63.62%
13: 71.91%
12: 79.15%
11: 85.10%
10: 89.71%
 9: 93.06%
 8: 95.31%
 7: 96.71%
 6: 97.50%
 5: 97.90%
 4: 98.08%
 3: 98.14%

The above numbers should account for all rules relevant to Resistance Rolls. I.e., like a Quick Contest, except the attacker must actually succeed on his roll, not just fail less than the defender - and ties always go to the defender.