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Old 08-29-2022, 05:39 AM   #1
Yapadekoi
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default Elemental druid and tweaks

Hello, I came here seeking the expert's wisdom in balance of advantage/disadvantage...

I'm the GM for a group with a cleric, a druid and a wizard.
The druid feel he lack some punch... The fact the campaign is starting by a long chapter in a city is not helping either... (hello -3 to spell casting).
Well he is not complainign, but rather stoically trying to help the group and failing msot of the time.... It start to become sad...

We start with 125 pts delver and rushing to power invertiture lvl 4 to cast lightning is not an option...

As a GM I have the same opinion as the player ( for once) i wish to level him up a little without disturbing the balance of powers.

I'm looking for a long term solution (not only in this campaign) because i'll start another campaign with other player and another druid in the team.
So after pondering a while I came with some idea:

I definetely wish to allow him "healing slumber" and "rooting feet".
does adding minor healing on top of this with esoteric medecine will steal too much from the cleric niche ?
Our cleric is a thief cleric not much interested in healing but he does cast minor and major healing...

I want to add an "elemental" flavour to the druids.
I came with two option via some advantage:

Elemental bending 2pts/lvl prerequisite must be lower than druidic investiture:
Allow to learn spell from elemental college
Works as magery for one college of elements (fire/water etc..)

Or

as a 5pts/lvl advantage must be lower than druidic investiture BUT
Works as power investiture for one college of elements (so no need for spell prerequisite).

Magery for one college is 6pts in the basic set but in our case the player already paid for druidic power so...

Am I totally out of control ready to open a box of trouble I won't be able to shut ?

As a total disgression, of what i already tweak: i added all the extra effort option in combat as 1pt perks.


Thanks for the advice, and sorry for the poor english grammar it's not my mother tongue.

Last edited by Yapadekoi; 08-29-2022 at 05:46 AM.
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Old 08-29-2022, 03:29 PM   #2
Dalin
 
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Default Re: Elemental druid and tweaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yapadekoi View Post
The druid feel he lack some punch...
You are not alone!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yapadekoi View Post
I definetely wish to allow him "healing slumber" and "rooting feet".
does adding minor healing on top of this with esoteric medecine will steal too much from the cleric niche ?
Our cleric is a thief cleric not much interested in healing but he does cast minor and major healing...
I often allow druids to access healing spells. Sometimes we re-flavor it a bit. (In one game druidic healing left scars but clerical didn't.) Shouldn't be an issue at all.

As for the elemental ideas, others are probably better at figuring out point balance issues. (I never worry too much about that.) I want to point out, though, that druids already get a fair number of elemental spells. If there are just a few additional ones that a druid wants, you could probably just add them to the list without breaking anything.

I experiment all the time with this sort of thing. Adding spells, creating new spells, etc. Try it out and see what happens.
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Old 08-30-2022, 12:31 PM   #3
benz72
 
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Default Re: Elemental druid and tweaks

Another potential power up for druids is to play on their 'Universal Wisdom' or 'Natural Harmony' aspect and let them buy Psychometry (natural materials only).
Let them ask the wooden table about that mysterious stranger or have the cobblestones estimate how long ago that interesting carriage passed. If the hints from divinity to clerics are clouded in allusion and mystery let druids get straight answers and make them information powerhouses. Combine that with some Tactics or Intelligence Analysis and wily old druids can make adventuring easier even in cities.
Not everything is combat power.
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Old 08-31-2022, 05:07 AM   #4
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Elemental druid and tweaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
I often allow druids to access healing spells. Sometimes we re-flavor it a bit. (In one game druidic healing left scars but clerical didn't.) Shouldn't be an issue at all.
Bring back Plant Form Other and Heal Plant.
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Old 09-03-2022, 04:37 AM   #5
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Default Re: Elemental druid and tweaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
You are not alone!



I often allow druids to access healing spells. Sometimes we re-flavor it a bit. (In one game druidic healing left scars but clerical didn't.) Shouldn't be an issue at all.
If you have access to Magic Items (3e), I used an item called Wound Mud from it for my woodland scout/hedge wizard to give him non-spellcasting healing that would fit a Druid. Basically, it increases natural at-rest healing.
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Old 09-03-2022, 02:48 PM   #6
mburr0003
 
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Default Re: Elemental druid and tweaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
I often allow druids to access healing spells.
I did this for a while, then I decided to revert it and instead, I allow Druids all the Plant spells from GURPS Magic Plant Spells, all four Elemental Colleges, the Weather college, most of the Food spells, a bunch of Ptotectiona nd Warning spells, and give them access to cheaper cost animal/plant/fungus Allies and cheaper Alternate Form (Animal/Plant/Fungus/Elemental).

For healing they have access to herbal remedies via Herb Lore which I allow to make all the potions Alchemy can make.

And still I rarely see a Druid in my games...
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Old 09-04-2022, 04:39 PM   #7
restlessgriffin
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Default Re: Elemental druid and tweaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yapadekoi View Post
...
I'm the GM for a group with a cleric, a druid and a wizard.
The druid feel he lack some punch... The fact the campaign is starting by a long chapter in a city is not helping either... (hello -3 to spell casting).
...
We start with 125 pts delver and rushing to power invertiture lvl 4 to cast lightning is not an option...
A 125 point build is considerably weaker than a standard Dungeon Fantasy starting character. At 125 points you've got a low level professional adventurer. Unfortunately, Druids are one of (if not THE) weakest character profession archetypes. If the cleric is a theif/cleric rather than a cleric warrior type, I wonder about the viability of the party assuming there is a good level of combat as there usually is in a DF campaign.

Mystic Mist and Pollen Cloud (both PI2) could be rather useful.

Quote:
As a GM I have the same opinion as the player (for once) i wish to level him up a little without disturbing the balance of powers.

I'm looking for a long term solution (not only in this campaign) because i'll start another campaign with other player and another druid in the team.
Personally, I'd go with increasing points to 150 so the PC can take more PI (Druidic).

Quote:
So after pondering a while I came with some idea:

I definetely wish to allow him "healing slumber" and "rooting feet".
does adding minor healing on top of this with esoteric medecine will steal too much from the cleric niche ?
Our cleric is a thief cleric not much interested in healing but he does cast minor and major healing...
Healing slumber seems sort of matching druidic. While "rooted feet" sounds druidic, from the description, it really isn't. I'd only allow rooted feet for druid if it is cast after Tangle Growth (but that's PI3) or if the target is standing on dirt or natural turf (grass, garden, crop field, etc). On stone surface, I could see Rooted Feet as an elemental spell where the feet are frozen to the stone surface.

I have to admit I'm really disappointed in the highly limited spell selection for Druids. I thought when seeing that Druids could be "elementalists", they'd get the full complement of spells in the elemental colleges -- Air/Earth/Water/Fire.

Quote:
I want to add an "elemental" flavour to the druids.
...
Elemental bending 2pts/lvl prerequisite must be lower than druidic investiture:
Allow to learn spell from elemental college
Works as magery for one college of elements (fire/water etc..)
Seems too cheap. I assume the normal magic spell chain for re-reqs needs to be honored. If not it almost certainly is too cheap.

Quote:
as a 5pts/lvl advantage must be lower than druidic investiture BUT
Works as power investiture for one college of elements (so no need for spell prerequisite).

Magery for one college is 6pts in the basic set but in our case the player already paid for druidic power so...
If allowing full spell list from an elemental magic college, I'd say price it at 6pts/level. Reasoning is you are allowing full access to the elemental college spells with no need to have a spell chain for pre-requisites. Note: I think this will upset balance as some of the spells would almost certainly be more powerful than things that are marked PI X. So you may be letting the PC have things that would be say PI6 if they were allowed.
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Old 09-08-2022, 02:05 PM   #8
Yapadekoi
 
Join Date: Aug 2022
Default Re: Elemental druid and tweaks

Thanks for your opinion !



Quote:
Originally Posted by restlessgriffin View Post
Healing slumber seems sort of matching druidic. While "rooted feet" sounds druidic, from the description, it really isn't. I'd only allow rooted feet for druid if it is cast after Tangle Growth (but that's PI3) or if the target is standing on dirt or natural turf (grass, garden, crop field, etc). On stone surface, I could see Rooted Feet as an elemental spell where the feet are frozen to the stone surface.
Yep my opinion too: only possible to cast rooted feet where there is ... roots...
Not on stone or other place...


Regarding healing
we already use healing slumber as PI 2 and boosted sligthly esoteric healing (+1) and that do the trick.
I have stated for us that Minor healing will be drudic PI 3.
I hope this way I will put the druid in the "slow but efficient healing" niche.




Quote:
Originally Posted by restlessgriffin View Post
Seems too cheap. I assume the normal magic spell chain for re-reqs needs to be honored. If not it almost certainly is too cheap.

Yep you assume correct, this option would require the pre-req of spells.
It's funny to compare our view, I thought it would be too costly:
2pts for unlocking 1 lvl in only ONE college of elemental college, while you already have access to "some" elemental spell with druidic power.

can be costly 6pt to go lvl 3 on top of PI drudic and then you still must pay for the spells pre-req no ? Maybe i don't envision the elemental spells power...

I was thinking to balance the elemental spell of druid by replaccing for those the nature's strength level by the strength of the particular element in the area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by restlessgriffin View Post
A 125 point build is considerably weaker than a standard Dungeon Fantasy starting character. At 125 points you've got a low level professional adventurer. Unfortunately, Druids are one of (if not THE) weakest character profession archetypes. If the cleric is a theif/cleric rather than a cleric warrior type, I wonder about the viability of the party assuming there is a good level of combat as there usually is in a DF campaign.
The campaign is the "second darkness" from pathfinder.
Their is a lot of fighting encounter but for in the begining most of the big fight count some NPC allied with the team, so they manage.

The wizard got killed quickly tough...
not a big deal the player got to return to the melee character he prefer and made a new half-orc knight ( more like a rough and callous city guard).

The cleric is a swash-cleric, so he does kill some stuff with his blade but his main rôle is to be the "face" of the group.


The druid was more or less useless (skinny elven maid, with lots of RR malus, low strength, no offensive spell except pollen cloud)
but I was lucky because their is some Animals in all the encounter !
The druid took those opportunity to tame some of those instead of killing them ! So now she got a menagerie with 3 tiny monstruous Scorpio (one is still wild but two are really tamed) one baboon and a poisonous snake.
It really improved her fun to used those pet as spy or shield. Common thug are reluctant to rush her when the three scorpio are on the floor in front of her.
They are not tamed enough to attack without use of spell but they hold their ground.
Even if she didn't command them to attack she can use here bow behind this "wall".

And now they have an ork knight with a warhammer (and no shield)

their sis new team member an ex girl friend (in game) of the cleric who is a callous thief , she is not very combat proof after the "backstab phase" however.

So yes its a squishy team...

I totally agree that is a too light for classical dungeon fantasy.
The player got quiet a cold sweat when the Ork was stuck by a strong opponent and the girl cornered by the rest of a gang, but well they survive until know.

they played their tactics well and the fact that some henchmen are intended to help them in the campaign balance things.


I allowed once a combo of the cleric spell alcoholic stench
( an adaptation of a pathfinder spell works like stench but in form of jet going out of the mouth of the priest) and the druidic ignite fire to make a small explosion , twas fun. Good teamworking.

Sorry its seems my grammar went south by the end of this post.
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Old 09-11-2022, 04:02 PM   #9
restlessgriffin
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Default Re: Elemental druid and tweaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yapadekoi View Post
Thanks for your opinion !

Regarding healing
we already use healing slumber as PI 2 and boosted sligthly esoteric healing (+1) and that do the trick.
I have stated for us that Minor healing will be drudic PI 3.
I hope this way I will put the druid in the "slow but efficient healing" niche.
OK, Healing Slumber at PI2 (same as Clerical) seems reasonable. Honestly I'd keep Minor Healing (Druidic) as PI1 (same as clerical), but maybe don't allow Major Healing or Great Healing at all for Druids. Also no Faith Healing for Druids. So that would preserve niche protection for Clerics.

Quote:
Yep you assume correct, this option would require the pre-req of spells.
It's funny to compare our view, I thought it would be too costly:
2pts for unlocking 1 lvl in only ONE college of elemental college, while you already have access to "some" elemental spell with druidic power.
Most of the elemental spells you can already access are really limited and there is no spell pre-req chain required. Adding say the Fire college for instance without the specific balance of PI would give a major advantage. Lets say for instance you take Fire College at cost only 2pts/lvl. So take 4 levels for 8 points and no spell chain needed. Take Flame Jet, Fireball, Flaming Weapon, and Explosive Fireball. Major intrusion on Wizards niche with no spell pre-req list needed. Cost of 8 points where level 4 normally cost Wizard 45 points (Magery 0 costs 5). Stick with lowest level PI you can comfortably take. Improve it later if needed.

Quote:
can be costly 6pt to go lvl 3 on top of PI drudic and then you still must pay for the spells pre-req no ? Maybe i don't envision the elemental spells power...
Go cheap with PI and stick with more effective cheap elemental. PI1 and Fire College 3 ==> PI1 costs 10, Fire College Magery 3 for 6 points. I don't think you'd need to pay the Magery 0 cost. If you do it is really odd to pay 5 points for Magery 0 and then 2 pts/lvl for one college magery.

Quote:
I was thinking to balance the elemental spell of druid by replaccing for those the nature's strength level by the strength of the particular element in the area.
That might work but adds book keeping. If you go that route you'd be doing Aspected Mana and should impose the same penalty on Wizards. I've used it in the past and really like how it works. I think it is defined in either GURPS Fantasy or Thaumatergy (?sp). Basically, Aspected Mana impacts both the element and its opposite. Say you have Water Aspected. This would give + to Water spells and - to Fire spells. So you could have +2 to all Water/Ice spells and -2 to all Fire/Heat spells.

Quote:
The campaign is the "second darkness" from pathfinder.
Their is a lot of fighting encounter but for in the begining most of the big fight count some NPC allied with the team, so they manage.
Not familiar with it. I've only played in one Pathfinder one shot game. However, it's really cool to be able to use NPC allies. It gives some use to things like Leadership, Charisma, Tactics ...

Quote:
The wizard got killed quickly tough...
... player got to return to the melee character he prefer ... half-orc knight ...
Quote:
The cleric is a swash-cleric, so he does kill some stuff with his blade but his main rôle is to be the "face" of the group.
OK, really confused now. I thought the cleric was a thief-cleric. Or was that druid-thief? Anyway at lower point values it's really hard to utilize multiple profession archetypes. Makes the primary to ineffective. For small parties I like doing "multi-profession" archetypes/templates. For instance I like doing Druid/Martial Artist or Barbarian/Druid, but thats using 250pts.

Quote:
The druid was more or less useless (skinny elven maid, with lots of RR malus, low strength, no offensive spell except pollen cloud)
but I was lucky because their is some Animals in all the encounter !
The druid took those opportunity to tame some of those instead of killing them ! So now she got a menagerie with 3 tiny monstruous Scorpio (one is still wild but two are really tamed) one baboon and a poisonous snake.
It really improved her fun to used those pet as spy or shield. Common thug are reluctant to rush her when the three scorpio are on the floor in front of her.
They are not tamed enough to attack without use of spell but they hold their ground.
Even if she didn't command them to attack she can use here bow behind this "wall".
Not sure how that would work. I assume she'd need a lot of time and a really good Animal Handling skill. Being able to recruit animal companions would make Druid more viable. Although, in town this would be a major issue unless it's a rough and tumble frontier town. Big cities I'd think wouldn't allow such creatures.

Quote:
I allowed once a combo of the cleric spell alcoholic stench
(an adaptation of a pathfinder spell works like stench but in form of jet going out of the mouth of the priest) and the druidic ignite fire to make a small explosion , twas fun. Good teamworking.
Does igniting it decrease the stench effect?

Lots of use of odor/stench in Pathfinder? The one thing I remember from the one-shot was encountering some creatures with really bad smell. It caused my fighter type character to vomit as he failed a check (Constitution or something similar).
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Old 09-12-2022, 09:23 AM   #10
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Elemental druid and tweaks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yapadekoi View Post


Elemental bending 2pts/lvl prerequisite must be lower than druidic investiture:
Allow to learn spell from elemental college
Works as magery for one college of elements (fire/water etc..)
I alllow alternate forms of Magery to each other using the alternative ability pricing, so 1/5 cost meaning Purchase Magery at 10/level, then an alternate form of Magery at 2/level.
Since this is DFRP you're only dealing with one form of Magery but the principle would apply to Power Investiture too.
Say purchase PI for a water spirit/god at 2/level only cast water type spells, no prerequistes, and have a pact to take care of water and do what is appropriate to the water god. Build some powerful spirits or lesser elemental gods and give them personality and goals.
By build I do not mean give stats, just personality and a spell list.
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