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Old 07-02-2022, 01:33 AM   #1
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Spell Prerequisite Count discussion

Hi All,
I didn't want to respond on the other thread, as I want to keep it clean for reference purposes...

Great Wish has a requisite count of 17 (or 18) as shown in the quote below, but I have to ask...

Is GREAT WISH technically a spell, or is it an enchantment ITEM associated with what is essentially an uncastable spell (due to energy requirements)?

Hal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Great Wish (count 17 [given as 18 in table, Enchant should count as a spell of a different College (Enchantment)]):

Wish

Lesser Wish

Enchant [also counts as a spell of a different College]

Purify Air (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Itch (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Sense Foe (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Ignite Fire (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Lend Energy (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Seek Water (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Seek Earth (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Sound (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Simple Illusion (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Seek Plant (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Sense Danger (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Keen (Sense) (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Haste (or any spell of a College not already listed)
Death Vision (or any spell of a College not already listed)
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Old 07-02-2022, 07:17 AM   #2
KarlKost
 
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Default Re: Spell Prerequisite Count discussion

It's an enchantment. It's not associated with nothing, it's like Powerstones or any other enchantment spells
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Old 07-02-2022, 04:55 PM   #3
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Spell Prerequisite Count discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Hi All,
I didn't want to respond on the other thread, as I want to keep it clean for reference purposes...

Great Wish has a requisite count of 17 (or 18) as shown in the quote below, but I have to ask...

Is GREAT WISH technically a spell, or is it an enchantment ITEM associated with what is essentially an uncastable spell (due to energy requirements)?

Hal
Definitely a spell as the internal text for Great Wish refers to it as being a spell twice.

By analogy, while Doppelganger definitely creates what could fairly be regarded as an enchanted item, and has a high energy cost (1,000 vs. Great Wish's 2,000), the internal text of that spell makes reference to it also being a spell saying "let the Doppelganger spell resist" rather than "the Doppelganger resists."

So, arguably, at least technically, all the spells listed in the Enchantment college are actually spells, as opposed to spell-like aids to creating enchanted items.
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Old 07-02-2022, 05:20 PM   #4
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Spell Prerequisite Count discussion

Unrelated to the OP, but still on topic, a couple of thoughts that have arisen for consideration.

First, although a bit questionable, the prerequisite counts do seem to make clear that the Enchantment spells constitute an Enchantment College of spells. More surprisingly, it also seems to be the case that rather than being a catch-all category for disparate, possibly independent spells, the Meta-Spells also seem to qualify as belonging to a discipline that constitutes itself as a college in its own right.

Second, there appear to exist what I would call core spells within each college. They are not quite Chivalry & Sorcery's idea of each Magick [sic] college having a Basic spell which must be learned and upon which knowledge all other spells within that college depend, but the concept is very close to that. There are spells within each college which can be learned independently of a core spell, but time and again, a particular spell will show up in the prerequisite counts for the spells of that college, such that if you don't learn the core spell, you are going to be fairly limited in what you can do within that college.

Hereafter, several colleges with what are arguably their core spells:

Air: Purify Air
Animal: Beast-Soother
Body Control: Itch
Communication & Empathy: Sense Foes
Earth: Seek Earth
Enchantment: Enchant
Fire: Ignite Fire
Food: Test Food
Healing: Lend Energy
Illusion & Creation: Simple Illusion
Light & Darkness: Light
Making and Breaking: Find Weakness
Mind Control: Bravery and Foolishness, possibly Fear as well.
Movement: Apportation and, to a lesser extent, Haste.
Necromantic: Death Vision
Plant: Seek Plant
Sound: Sound
Water: Seek Water

For colleges not listed, I haven't yet run into enough repeated spells to determine if there even are core spells for those colleges. For the Weather College, I'm currently leaning toward the idea that it doesn't have core spells in general, though a case might be made for Lightning being core to all the Lightning related spells but that seems a bit over-specialized for the general concept.
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Old 07-03-2022, 07:06 AM   #5
hal
 
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Default Re: Spell Prerequisite Count discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Definitely a spell as the internal text for Great Wish refers to it as being a spell twice.

By analogy, while Doppelganger definitely creates what could fairly be regarded as an enchanted item, and has a high energy cost (1,000 vs. Great Wish's 2,000), the internal text of that spell makes reference to it also being a spell saying "let the Doppelganger spell resist" rather than "the Doppelganger resists."

So, arguably, at least technically, all the spells listed in the Enchantment college are actually spells, as opposed to spell-like aids to creating enchanted items.
Interesting take on what enchantment "spells" are.

I have to confess however, that the provisions for having to research the ability to create magic items for any given spell as a separate task causes some potential issues further down the road.

Why? Let's look at the following scenario: Jerome Fuller is an ordinary man of sorts. He decides to research a spell called "Light". Why? Because civilzation that had all of the spells already researched isn't going to help the poor guy when there are no libraries around and no living mages to teach Jerome. He has a left over enchanted workshop however, so he's good there. His thaumatology skill is decent - "Mastery" in it (aka skill 16). So - he decides to research the spell Light, and succeeds. He doesn't bother however, to research how to create an enchanted item that comprises light enchantments.

So, the difference between the Light Jerome knows, and the Light from GURPS MAGIC is merely one of being able to create a magic item right?

Later on, Jerome meeds up with a mage who had studied with the ancients, who was also in suspended animation before Jereme discovered him and rescued him.

Now what? Jereme's Light spell is effectively what in game terms? Is it a different spell entirely? What does Jerome have to do to upgrade his current skill that lacks the ability to craft enchanted items - to that of the spell which does? A full character point? A half character point (oh wait - no half character points in GURPS 4e).

Implications wise, it seems to me, that the rules for spell inventions add more problems than they solve. The Prerequisite count aspect just makes matters - inelegant (to put it mildly).
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Old 07-09-2022, 03:54 PM   #6
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Spell Prerequisite Count discussion

The list is almost complete at this point. The last couple of days have been spent double checking the counts where they differ from those given in the table. Between checking the errata for both printings of Magic and some errors that came to light, I've whittled the miscounts down from almost 50 to 38. At this point, either I've gotten the counts correct or I'm too close to see any errors I'm making. If someone would like to double-check my counts, possibly rebuilding the counts from scratch, here are the references:

Post 21 p. 102 Analyze Magic 2 viz 3
Post 72 p. 114 Body of Shadow 7 viz 4
Post 197 p. 62 Doppelganger 31 viz 29
Post 222 p. 120 Enlarge Object 16 viz 17
Post 224 p. 141 Enslave 15 viz 14
Post 229 p. 192 Essential Acid 15 viz 13
Post 254 p. 118 Fasten 10 viz 11
Post 276 p. 162 Forest Warning 2 viz 4
Post 284 p. 189 Frostbite 6 viz 5
Post 285 p. 38 Fumble 3 viz 1
Post 311 p. 62 Great Wish 17 viz 18
Post 336 p. 70 Homunculus 16 viz 15
Post 361 p. 97 Inscribe 6 viz 7
Post 429 p. 118 Mapmaker 8 viz 9
Post 452 p. 55 Move Terrain 28 viz 29
Post 472 p. 34 Partial Shapeshifting 13 viz 12
Post 477 p. 63 Penetrating Weapon 12 viz 11
Post 481 p. 32 Permanent Beast Possession 5 viz 7
Post 492 p. 83 Phase Other 6 viz 5
Post 518 p. 105 Projection 5 viz 6
Post 541 p. 177 Rebuild/TL 23 viz 22
Post 542 p. 106 Recall 9 viz 8
Post 561 p. 113 Remove Reflection 2 viz 4
Post 567 p. 158 Repel Spirits 12 viz 14
Post 584 p. 127 Restore Mana 15 viz 14
Post 601 p. 86 Sanctuary 20 viz 21
Post 615 p. 107 See Secrets 5 viz 4
Post 654 p. 118 Sharpen 9 viz 10
Post 660 p. 120 Shrink Object 16 viz 15
Post 736 p. 114 Sunlight 4 viz 6
Post 741 p. 125 Suspend Mana 12 viz 11
Post 742 p. 121 Suspend Spell 1 viz 0
Post 749 p. 128 Telecast 12 viz 14
Post 777 p. 120 Transform Object 14 viz 13
Post 778 p. 43 Transform Other 14 viz 15
Post 779 p. 41 Transmorgification 31 viz 30
Post 831 p. 104 Wizard Mouth 7 viz 6
Post 833 p. 160 Wraith 25 viz 24

Come Tuesday evening, I'll post the last three spells, ending the thread, so if you could post any errors you find here, that would be helpful.
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Old 07-09-2022, 04:11 PM   #7
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Spell Prerequisite Count discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Interesting take on what enchantment "spells" are.

I have to confess however, that the provisions for having to research the ability to create magic items for any given spell as a separate task causes some potential issues further down the road.

Why? Let's look at the following scenario: Jerome Fuller is an ordinary man of sorts. He decides to research a spell called "Light". Why? Because civilzation that had all of the spells already researched isn't going to help the poor guy when there are no libraries around and no living mages to teach Jerome. He has a left over enchanted workshop however, so he's good there. His thaumatology skill is decent - "Mastery" in it (aka skill 16). So - he decides to research the spell Light, and succeeds. He doesn't bother however, to research how to create an enchanted item that comprises light enchantments.

So, the difference between the Light Jerome knows, and the Light from GURPS MAGIC is merely one of being able to create a magic item right?

Later on, Jerome meeds up with a mage who had studied with the ancients, who was also in suspended animation before Jereme discovered him and rescued him.

Now what? Jereme's Light spell is effectively what in game terms? Is it a different spell entirely? What does Jerome have to do to upgrade his current skill that lacks the ability to craft enchanted items - to that of the spell which does? A full character point? A half character point (oh wait - no half character points in GURPS 4e).

Implications wise, it seems to me, that the rules for spell inventions add more problems than they solve. The Prerequisite count aspect just makes matters - inelegant (to put it mildly).
The rules for inventing new spells do seem a bit kludgy. They seem ripe for tweaking with a few house rules.

I'm working up a systematic house rule for inventing new spells. I think by the time I close off the spell prerequisite count list that I'll have worked out exactly how I want the differing levels of Magery to affect the matter.


The house rules will reflect my tastes and ideas, so they won't suit everyone (or even necessarily anyone). I propose to put the rules forth as building blocks before putting them together as a whole, so there will be a rule on prerequisite spells and what they mean to the spell that has them; on how differing level of talent (Magery) affect concepts and on how they interact with each other. Possibly there will be a discussion of exactly what a spell is and how it works.

Then, everything will be put together with rules about prerequisite counts, how they penalize rolls, how to negate the penalties they give and all the book-keeping involved. There will almost definitely be book-keeping, as I don't usually mind it, but I'll try to keep it simple, something on the order of tick marks on the character sheet or Grimoire sheet for a character.
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Old 07-10-2022, 12:08 AM   #8
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Spell Prerequisite Count discussion

Hi Curmudgeon,
Thank you for your efforts on this. When I get a chance, and I'm sufficiently recovered from surgery, and all that fun stuff - I'll try to confirm work that you did.

For now, I will simply say THANK YOU for your tireless work. That it is taking this long before anyone noticed the rules (How long has GURPS MAGIC been out?) is a bit of a surprise. I almost regret resuming the Alaconius lectures and taking a hard look at the rules.

:(
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Old 07-10-2022, 10:11 AM   #9
jacobmuller
 
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Default Re: Spell Prerequisite Count discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Is GREAT WISH technically a spell, or is it an enchantment ITEM associated with what is essentially an uncastable spell (due to energy requirements)?

Hal
It's a spell, page 56 of Magic. Enchantments can only be cast via Ceremonial, etc.

Colleges of magic? As per the index, pages 2&3, or create your own to suit your needs.
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Old 07-10-2022, 11:27 AM   #10
hal
 
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Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Spell Prerequisite Count discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobmuller View Post
It's a spell, page 56 of Magic. Enchantments can only be cast via Ceremonial, etc.

Colleges of magic? As per the index, pages 2&3, or create your own to suit your needs.
If one only looks at the material listed in/under GREAT WISH, one could agree easily with your assessment.

However (and you knew there was a however coming right?):

Page 56 of GURPS MAGIC for 4e says this about enchantment spells:

"These spells allow mages to make and unmake permanently magical items. They can only be cast with ceremonial magic (p. 12). A PC may only learn these spells with the GM’s permission; nearly all of them are only available to quite advanced mages."

Page 42 of GURPS MAGIC 2nd edition says this:

"These are the spells used to make and unmake permanently magical items. They cannot be cast except by ceremonial magic (see p. 14)."

Since GREAT WISH is contained within the Enchantment college proper, and what is said about all spells within the college being made only via ceremonial casting - it stands to reason that technically, the GREAT WISH, although deemed to be a spell, is actually a magic item creation in the college of ENCHANTMENT. The actual act of creating the thing "Great Wish" isn't that it is a spell - it is a magical reality altering spell that permits the wish user to cast ANY spell with up to 1,000 energy available for casting, and is cast

"with automatic success and no chance of resistance"

THAT is definitely not how spells normally work. That it can add (or subtract!) advantages up to 20 points or less is also a marvel to behold. In a way, I think that Magery 0 screwed over player characters. Why?

Is Magery 0 its own separate advantage? Per GURPS CHARACTER Assistant, the answer is yes. It costs 5 points. Subsequent levels of magery cost 10 points per level. So, can a person wish they had Magery 1 per the rules as written for GREAT WISH? Technically, I believe the answer is no. Each subsequent level of Magery would require its own Great Wish to buy up.

Under GURPS BASIC SET THIRD EDITION REVISED (Before Magery 0 was a tickle in Sean Punch's grey matter) - magery one cost 15 points and thus would have been covered by the GREAT WISH.

In all - each GM will have to make up their own minds, because like any "Contract" - the writing in GURPS MAGIC allows rules lawyers wiggle room to go with "RAW" argument saying "Yes it does" or "No it doesn't!" When you get two people arguing the point, the invocation of KROMM!!!! would cause the Mighty Kromm to appear, make a ruling, and move on to his more esoteric concerns in life. ;)

Yes, I'm saying that Tongue in cheek largely because Sean Punch became a line editor almost entirely on his work as KROMM on the mailing list. He's a person like any other, not a deity (at least, not yet). If it were not for Sean and David - GURPS as it exists today, would not be what it is.
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