07-15-2017, 03:09 PM | #11 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
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Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
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Resistant to Metabolic Hazards would of course give its bonus to the HT-based Resistance rolls for most Body Control spells. If you accept my argument that that Body Control spells are metabolic hazards, that's an obvious continuance of the argument. So Fumble is a weird spell, since it's resisted by DX. By the rules, IMH doesn't affect DX based Resistance. On the other hand, the spell doesn't say that it affects Golems or Undead, so it doesn't, unless that's an editing error. Since the Choke spell is a Body Control spell (and not an Air spell), I would guess that it works by preventing a living subject's lungs from working, and should be treated as a metabolic hazard. You can't choke a car and you can't choke a monster that's Immune to Metabolic Hazards. That's not my argument. You're welcome to disagree and provide arguments as to why I'm wrong, but not to put strawmen in my mouth and slay them.
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07-15-2017, 03:18 PM | #12 |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
Yeah that is a pretty straightforward ruling, body control spells are metabolic hazards simply because they are defined as being such.
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07-16-2017, 01:31 AM | #13 | |||||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
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DF Ogres (as PCs) can buy IMH. Are they Immune to Body Control spells? Quote:
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It gives immunity only to Metabolic threats. It's right there in the name. Fumble is a 'threat' that can only affect the living, however it is not a Metabolic threat. Quote:
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However there are 8-10 specific Body Control spells I'd be willing to consider as Metabolic affecting, and thus would fall under "Metabolic Hazards". But if I did so then the "good" versions of those spells would also be affected by IMH. Quote:
Is our hypothetical Ogre PC immune to stunning from hits to the vitals in the abdomen (a gut punch if you will)? Where are they defined as Metabolic Hazards? I get defined as "only affects the living", but that is a horse of a different color... |
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07-16-2017, 01:38 AM | #14 | |||
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
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Maybe it is asking Kromm time? |
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07-16-2017, 02:06 AM | #15 | ||||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
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Ogres are just brutal as PCs... but armor and weapons are expensive. Especially if they are Barbarians (SM +2? Yeesh). Which is why mine is a wrestler. And completely not Immune to Metabolic Hazards (it felt too much like cheating to me). Quote:
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Being in a choke hold is a threat to living things... ergo, concordantly, vis-a-vis. Quote:
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07-16-2017, 06:50 AM | #16 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
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Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
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You keep saying that I'm reaching outside the rules and my position isn't supported by the rules, but I'm reading the rules very literally here. A Metabolic Hazard is a threat that only affects the living (B81). A Body Control spell is a threat that only affects living beings (B35). Orcs have Resistant to Metabolic Hazards +3. Should an orc get an bonus to resist a Nauseate or Retch spell? Yes, that would be consistent with the definitions of Body Control spells and Metabolic Hazards, and it would make sense to me that orcs, already resistant to most things that cause Nausea and Retching, are not going to succumb to magically induced Nausea as easily as a puny human. Should an orc be resistant to Fumble? That's a harder question, but the prerequisite chain for Fumble includes Spasm, and Spasm is described as targeting the subject's voluntary muscles. That sounds like a Metabolic Hazard to me (induced acute hypocalcemia?) so I suspect Fumble is more of the same. Or not. But if you're going to continue to argue against my position, a quote or two from the actual rules would be appreciated.
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07-16-2017, 12:38 PM | #17 | |||||
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Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
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But a good number do not. (Note, i do not actually class Retch or Nauseate as Metabolic Hazards... but I'm willing to grant them under the umbrella.) Quote:
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This precludes say, a choke hold (which you have to admit is a threat to the living). Or should our hypothetical Ogre with ItMH be immune to that as well (DR doesn't protect so clears that hurdle)? [EDIT] I went and hunted down Conditions B428... which covers Afflictions. ItMH is specifically designed to resist Afflictions. Now I'm wondering if the intent is to class spells as Afflictions and thus ... how many other spells does ItMH casually resist? Clearly the Mind Control spell Sickness* is covered (in your opinion) but what about Daze or Sleep? Both are HT resisted, both Afflictions... * As it's both Body and Mind Control, it's covered under your philosophy. The following line also occurs in Resistant: Quote:
If so... I'm really way more inclined to buy ItMH for my Ogre... [/EDIT] Last edited by evileeyore; 07-16-2017 at 12:42 PM. |
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07-16-2017, 01:30 PM | #18 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
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Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
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Actually, since it's a Mind Control spell, it could just a mental effect that makes you think you're sick and isn't necessarily a Metabolic Hazard. Just like Hinder might not qualify as a Metabolic Hazard because it's also a movement spell and might be a spatial effect that slows your movement.
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07-16-2017, 02:34 PM | #19 |
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
The funny thing about this is in that in my head canon it's Mind Control and Body Control that are most compatible with "elder things". Lovecraft's elder things were mostly living entities...albeit at least part alien or from the Earth's remote past. And the things that Mind Control and Body Control do are the things that happen in Lovecraftian fiction. If you want to mess with someones sanity, alleviate their insanity, render them incapable of leaving a particular area, terrify them, or interact with dreams, then Mind Control seems like the way to go. Or if you were to twist and warp their physical form (including taking something utterly bizarre and hideous to humans and make it physically humanlike), interbreed them with different species, turn them to stone or just impose witch-like curses, then that's Body Control.
Mind and Body Control have the spells with the most potential for horror, as much or more more than Necromancy. And I kind of hate that they'd be excluded from being very useful in the games that are most oriented toward horror elements. |
07-16-2017, 11:41 PM | #20 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 100 hurricane swamp
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Re: Mind Control and Body Control Spells vs Elder Things in DF
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And you didn't answer about Sleep or Daze. HT resisted Mind Control, probably Afflictions, does ItMH stop them cold? Or are they somehow not "metabolic hazards"? |
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Tags |
body control, dungeon fantasy, elder thing, magic, mind control |
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