Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-28-2020, 11:26 AM   #1
SolemnGolem
 
SolemnGolem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The Hall of Fallen Columns
Default What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?

I've got GURPS Thaumatology, GURPS Magic, most of the Vol. 3 Pyramids, and all of the Magic/Thaum spinoff supplement books for GURPS 4th Edition.

My scenario: The PCs are going to free a dark godling from its slumber and they have to defeat it. They could do this by sealing it away and dropping its Cradle into the Void, or they could try to fight it.

The godling is not intended to be omnipotent - it's intended to be around as tough a fight as a large dragon. Theologically, it is strongly associated with undeath, void, destruction, creation (especially deceptive creation such as illusions) and mind control (especially rage, fear, disgust).

I'd rather not go through the standard Magic system (spells-as-skills), since I'd prefer for a godling to have a very flexible and powerful spellcasting ability. The spellcasting should be rather akin to the godling warping and rearranging its own proximal reality.

Of the remaining systems, I can see four faintly-related systems giving flexibility: Syntactic Magic (from Thaumatology) for Verb/Noun costs, Realm Magic (ibid) for conceptual divisions of existence, Ritual Path Magic (which seems like a worked version of Syntactic), and finally Dungeon Fantasy's Incantation Magic (which seems like an action version of RPM, exchanging the time commitment instead for a cumulative skill penalty).

I'd like to showcase a godling who could wield magic with extreme flexibility (albeit in a limited number of theological associated realms) for one combat, after which the godling will be destroyed or sealed away.

Which system would be best for this? I'm leaning towards:
  • Realm Magic is likely to be too much work to be worthwhile, since one of the first steps for the GM is to conceptually define all the possible realms and then back-deduce the costs of spellcasting depending on fraction of total, and also adjusted for level of potency. For just one single combat, the frontloaded design work isn't really economical.
  • Syntactic Magic seems more on point with what I need, but the version in Thaumatology is more of a toolkit for design than an actual worked example itself.
  • Ritual Path Magic stylistically emphasizes slow spellcasting, with various roleplaying bonuses given for investigative work and equipment preparation.
  • Incantation Magic does away with the slow speed, and focuses on a cumulative penalty which can be counteracted by high skill levels and also by taking longer.

I'm thinking that I could give the godling arbitrarily high levels of skill in the Incantation framework, which could balance out almost any spell effect desired, and then use the Incantation Verb/Noun definitions to suit whatever combat need arises. The godling would still have an Energy Reserve and would still have to spend it during spellcasting, but this is more a means of keeping track of ultimate power exhaustion in the encounter, than a means of limiting what it's capable of actually doing per spellcasting.

Any thoughts? Has anybody actually gamed with the four systems and could they offer any insights as to how they play?
SolemnGolem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2020, 11:39 AM   #2
Anders
 
Anders's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Default Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?

Ritual Path Magic is the most high-powered system out there. Give the godling all the Ritual Adept things and go nuts.

Or you could just go with the most flexible system of all - GM fiat. "Yeah, he does this. No, you don't know how he did it."
__________________
“When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius
Anders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2020, 12:17 PM   #3
Imbicatus
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Default Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?

Just define the powers the god can use without worrying about point costs or magic systems. It’s a god with powers the PCs can’t mimic, so the details on how it does what it does are irrelevant to the game.
Imbicatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2020, 12:47 PM   #4
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?

FWIW, I make my living selling you (or trying to sell you!) GURPS stuff . . . and I'm with the people recommending that you go with "gods just do stuff, no need to justify how to the players." The moment you stick a rules system on what gods, even minor ones, can do, these things happen:
  • You change your story to suit the rules. That means you're no longer telling the story that you planned to tell. No matter how "open-ended" your chosen system ends up being, it's the work of someone who isn't you, and will have biases, tells, quirks, and foibles. That means it will do things a certain way ("within the range of what these tables allow," "within the constraints of the powers system," "within the limits of this author's imagination," etc.), and that might not be your way.

  • You make it possible to "game" the divine. Thanks to the system's inevitable "fingerprint" (see above), the players will eventually deduce which rules you're using and realize that the gods have to operate within their limits, however generous. Then a certain kind of player will try to abuse that system, if only to escape divine retribution or make their gods-given powers more powerful for the points.

  • You paint a target on the gods. Gods with point totals, or at least parameters, fuel an arms race as a certain kind of player goes beyond simply trying to "game" the divine and actively seeks to have their PC ascend to godhood, outdo a god, or even kill a god. That suits far fewer types of stories and campaigns than it doesn't suit.
As the GM, you're the campaign's ultimate god in some sense, and you should be able to do what you want without having to explain how or why. Yes, of course you owe your players common courtesy, even-handedness in your take on the rules, and the campaign they signed up for. You shouldn't throw your weight around in those regards. But neither should you be bullied by players into explaining what gods do – how high a level, how many dice, how good a roll, etc. You don't owe that to anybody!
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2020, 02:15 PM   #5
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?

Well, if he's only a big and bad as a large dragon, he's unlikely to be an bona fide God, just a little spirit shaped a bit like a Diety.



I've used RPM quite a bit, and I've used Realm magic a fair amount. My take-aways:
  • RPM has a strong fingerprint, in the form of how long it takes to cast, the way charms work, and the ability of most mages to achieve most effects. If you want the diety to be powerful but take a while between big castings, RPM isn't a bad strategy.
  • RPM gains power more quickly than some other systems for the same amount of points when in the 600 point range, but this is an NPC, so its not a big deal, but it is something to be aware of.
  • Setting up realm magic prices is only as complicated as you make it. When working with concepts the size of a Gurps: Magic college, I usually just eyeball the cost at 30 and call it good. This is an NPC, so you don't even need to worry about that point cost, though you can certainly keep an eye on it. Your Godling has undeath, destruction/void, creation/illusion and mind control. It might have a few others at low levels as well. Vary the levels of each realm, and you've got it set up. You can also wing the level costs, like saying that mind control only for dark emotions is only 2 out of 5 levels: one for detect, one for dark emotions, one for all emotions, one for actual mind control, and one for the god-like power. (if he doesn't have detection, that's a single level)
  • Realm magic that uses the Energy costs in the book is expensive in terms of FP. You'll want a Large energy reserve, and even those can run out extremely quickly. ER regeneration may be appropriate.
  • I actually usually run Realm magic with alternate casting cost, paid in some weird metaphysical currency that can be gathered from the world (I've actually used electricity before). I get the best results with that.
  • You can also run Realm magic with "Disregarding Energy Costs" from pages 194 and 195. Unless you intentionally want to limit the diety via ER, you can just use this.
  • A lot of parameters on Realm magic are customizable. Casting time is just a touch slow, but even at its slowest its faster than RPM... its just slow enough for a melee fighter to notice what's happening and actually do something.
Just talking about my experience with the systems.
__________________
Be helpful, not pedantic

Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2020, 04:35 PM   #6
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?

A minor deity with IQ 20 [200], Magery 12 (RPM) [125], Modular Ability 1 (Cosmic Powers; Trait-Limited, Ritual Mastery Perk Only, -50%) [5], Modular Abilities 24 (Slotted Cosmic Powers; Magical Skills Only, -20%) [102], Path Adept [40], Path of Magic (VH) IQ+4 [24]-24, and Thaumatology (VH) IQ+4 [24]-24 is a phenomenal magician. With the investment of 520 CP, they are capable of performing most single Path rituals (or Path of Magic plus another Path) at an effective skill of 26 (they can also create potions with an effective skill of 26). They have an energy reserve of 36 mana points and can support 36 conditional rituals.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2020, 04:46 PM   #7
SolemnGolem
 
SolemnGolem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: The Hall of Fallen Columns
Default Re: What's the best GURPS thaumatology system for a minor godlike boss being?

Thanks for the speedy responses and the admonitions against statting up omnipotent beings. I fully understand Rule Zero and all the standard waivers of GM liability therein. I still wish to proceed with this stress test of the gaming system (edit: especially since official GURPS publications have already statted up god-level beings before - see The Sad Lost God and "The Annihilator").

The godling's backstory actually fits Kromm's admonitions rather well ("watch out or mere mortals could level up to godhood!"). In-story, it's a false god, created by unwitting wishful thinking by a group of worshippers fooled into following a constructed religion. So it pretty much appeared out of thin air, gained power from prayers, and now exists as a grotesque stillborn godling (what D&D might call an Atropal). As EricTheRed correctly puts it, this boss monster is only around the power level of a big dragon in combat - it has traits that make it a deity (but only in the sense that it derives power from others' wishful thinking, and can grant these back to worshippers occasionally as Advantages).

The PCs must be able to feasibly kill it, either by picking up certain backstoried artifacts to counter it, or through brute force. My current build for it (sans spellcasting) is around 1,000 CP total, which is comparable to some of the Third Edition GURPS Monsters stuff, so hardly ineffable power levels, though challenging.

On magic systems

Crunchwise, it looks like RPM's system is hard coded to expect time expenditure (in addition to an expense of ER/FP and skill penalties for rush casting) - the flavor being of an occultist in their circle gathering background mana while the fangs pace around them.

Realm magic, by contrast, has the level 6 which by itself seems like it would suggest a demigod-like level of power. This seems like it would be an ER-intensive spellcasting system, but potentially quite quick. So if the demigod has excess ER to burn, it could do so and cast many powerful spells back to back (tailored as the situation requires).

Then once it runs out of ER, it would have to rest and wait for its faithful's collective prayers to regenerate it again. So, canny PCs could cause the godling to exhaust its ER in spells to which they are immune (perhaps due to artifacts carried) and then they can dispose of it while its magical resources are empty.

Last edited by SolemnGolem; 11-01-2020 at 08:44 AM.
SolemnGolem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
incantation, magic, ritual path magic, thaumatology

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.