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12-14-2022, 11:37 AM   #21
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: ST, Arnold and Commando

Quote:
 Originally Posted by zoncxs He would need ST around 100 to hold that person like that.
I think you might be using 3rd edition ST there (that video...isn't bad, but isn't going into math either). The actual ST required is in the 30s -- 1xBL is a decent approximation for arm's length lifting -- you just need additional superpowers to do so while standing straight, because if your feet aren't under the center of mass of the combined total you're going to fall over.
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12-14-2022, 12:08 PM   #22
Varyon

Join Date: Jun 2013
Re: ST, Arnold and Commando

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony I think you might be using 3rd edition ST there (that video...isn't bad, but isn't going into math either). The actual ST required is in the 30s -- 1xBL is a decent approximation for arm's length lifting -- you just need additional superpowers to do so while standing straight, because if your feet aren't under the center of mass of the combined total you're going to fall over.
The reference image for the video (I admit I only watched a bit at the beginning), that of Darth Vader holding a Rebel Trooper by the throat, would also be easier than the straight-arm lift he talks about in the video itself, as it uses more muscles (including I believe allowing you to make some use of muscles outside of the arm); it's well within human capability to lift an adult man into the air by the throat with one hand, just not with the lifting technique typically seen in movies - and certainly not while holding them a significant horizontal distance away, as you note the change to center of mass is going to make you fall regardless of how strong you are. Being sufficiently heavy would let you pull it off, of course.

(Darth Vader doesn't have anything to worry about, though. Even if his mechanical parts don't render him sufficiently-heavy, he can just use telekinesis to either hold himself up or help him lift the target)
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12-14-2022, 12:15 PM   #23
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: ST, Arnold and Commando

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Varyon The reference image for the video (I admit I only watched a bit at the beginning), that of Darth Vader holding a Rebel Trooper by the throat, would also be easier than the straight-arm lift he talks about in the video itself, as it uses more muscles (including I believe allowing you to make some use of muscles outside of the arm)
More importantly, it's not using straight arms. The amount of torque that the shoulder muscle has to apply is equal to the weight times the lateral extension, so the closer you're holding your victim the easier it is.
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12-14-2022, 01:20 PM   #24
mr beer

Join Date: Mar 2013
Re: ST, Arnold and Commando

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RyanW There is a lot of speculation that much of Arnold's biography is as much masterful marketing as actual accomplishment (I didn't intend that to be so alliterative, it just worked out that way).
That may well be true but 500lbs max bench press is very plausible for a world-class bodybuilder. I think the current world record is around 800lbs and even back in Arnie's day it was ~700lbs. Record created by powerlifters not bodybuilders but its an adjacent activity.

12-14-2022, 02:16 PM   #25
zoncxs

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
Re: ST, Arnold and Commando

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony I think you might be using 3rd edition ST there (that video...isn't bad, but isn't going into math either). The actual ST required is in the 30s -- 1xBL is a decent approximation for arm's length lifting -- you just need additional superpowers to do so while standing straight, because if your feet aren't under the center of mass of the combined total you're going to fall over.
Never used 3rd edition so I don't know the rules for that. I was going off of the fact that 150 lbs. held at arms length (about 3 feet) would feel like around 1800 lbs.(assuming the fulcrum is 3 inches into the shoulder).
That requires at least ST 95 to do it one handed and as easily as he does it in the clip.

12-14-2022, 02:35 PM   #26
awesomenessofme1

Join Date: Mar 2016
Re: ST, Arnold and Commando

Quote:
 Originally Posted by zoncxs Never used 3rd edition so I don't know the rules for that. I was going off of the fact that 150 lbs. held at arms length (about 3 feet) would feel like around 1800 lbs.(assuming the fulcrum is 3 inches into the shoulder). That requires at least ST 95 to do it one handed and as easily as he does it in the clip.
I'm fairly certain that has never been the way GURPS does things. Because it's a lot of math for not a lot of fun.

12-14-2022, 02:45 PM   #27
zoncxs

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
Re: ST, Arnold and Commando

Quote:
 Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 I'm fairly certain that has never been the way GURPS does things. Because it's a lot of math for not a lot of fun.
Well, yeah, but all I was doing was answering how strong Arnies character in Commando would need to be to do the feat shown in the clip.

That answer is: ST 68+, ST 95+ to do it comfortably like in the movie.

As to what is PLAYABLE. I would not go real world physics. So the required ST score would be ST 20+, ST 28+ to do it comfortably like in the movie.

So you can have ST 16 + Lifting ST 2 + Lifting skill 18 to be able to pull that effect, ignore real physics.

12-14-2022, 03:32 PM   #28
Anthony

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Re: ST, Arnold and Commando

Quote:
 Originally Posted by zoncxs Never used 3rd edition so I don't know the rules for that. I was going off of the fact that 150 lbs. held at arms length (about 3 feet) would feel like around 1800 lbs.(assuming the fulcrum is 3 inches into the shoulder). That requires at least ST 95 to do it one handed and as easily as he does it in the clip.
That's a pretty big misunderstanding of the math. Yes, the amount of force being generated by the muscle is vastly larger than the weight of the object being lifted, but that's always the case, and already accounted for in our internal concept of what it means to pick up a given weight.
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 12-14-2022, 03:44 PM #29 sir_pudding Wielder of Smart Pants     Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ventura CA Re: ST, Arnold and Commando And notably "lifting BL with one hand" probably assumes the object is being held some comfortable distance away from your center of mass.
12-14-2022, 04:27 PM   #30
zoncxs

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: earth....I think.
Re: ST, Arnold and Commando

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anthony That's a pretty big misunderstanding of the math. Yes, the amount of force being generated by the muscle is vastly larger than the weight of the object being lifted, but that's always the case, and already accounted for in our internal concept of what it means to pick up a given weight.
Its not a misunderstanding of the math, though. GURPS simply handwaves the math. BL is about what you can carry, never mind how the weight is being carried nor how to visualize it. ST 10 is BL 20 lbs. Done. That means you can move 20 lbs with one hand over your head in one second. Done. How is that weight being moved? Irrelevant, and none of the books say how too.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by sir_pudding And notably "lifting BL with one hand" probably assumes the object is being held some comfortable distance away from your center of mass.
Hold 20 lbs a comfortably distance away from your body is nowhere near full arm length, though.

 Tags lifting, lifting st, strength

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