In Nomine....does it have a "Pro-Heaven" bias?

[Moonsight]

From my readings so far about In Nomine, I'm getting the impression so far it has a Pro-Heaven slant especially how Heaven and Hell treats souls that the former are able to move freely using Jacob's ladder but of course they also serve God (hence hinting their servitude slaves) but Hell (which supposedly represents the rejection of God's patriarchal power and freedom), treats human souls as cattle, torturing for them essence which makes them irredeemably monstrous at first glance and makes one wonder that "How are demons even supposed to playable?"

I have several questions:

1. Do all damned souls receive eternal torment for their essence or some demons give some damned souls special treatment? I mean is there any Demons that don't treat human souls as cattle? Or I also wonder if pleasure/sex can be used to gain essence?

2. Is it possible to portray Heaven and Hell as "morally grey" instead of "Black and White" and "Good vs Evil" which the far latter is highly subjective what you define what "Good" and "Evil" is.

Thing is I have a personal angle that Yahweh and Angels are the Patriarchal authority and the Status Quo who wants to subject human souls to his absolute rule and Lucifer and Demons are the rebels of that authority and aiming towards where humans are free of Yahweh's tyrannical rule so they have the right to self-determine their own destiny rather than Yahweh's. Of course the only problem is this is how damned souls are treated which I was wondering if it's possible for Demons to recruit damned souls to turn them into Demons for Hell's army and the neutrals...well, maybe depends on the Demon in question and how they treat them since they're used for essence?

Anyways I wonder if there's any Positive portrayals of Demons and Hell that doesn't make them all "Inherently Evil" "Eternal Torment" but rather present them as complex characters?

Anyways I wonder if it's possible to play In Nomine this way?

[alexondria]

Originally Posted by Moonsight

From my readings so far about In Nomine, I'm getting the impression so far it has a Pro-Heaven slant especially how Heaven and Hell treats souls that the former are able to move freely using Jacob's ladder but of course they also serve God (hence hinting their servitude slaves) but Hell (which supposedly represents the rejection of God's patriarchal power and freedom), treats human souls as cattle, torturing for them essence which makes them irredeemably monstrous at first glance and makes one wonder that "How are demons even supposed to playable?"

I have several questions:

1. Do all damned souls receive eternal torment for their essence or some demons give some damned souls special treatment? I mean is there any Demons that don't treat human souls as cattle? Or I also wonder if pleasure/sex can be used to gain essence?

2. Is it possible to portray Heaven and Hell as "morally grey" instead of "Black and White" and "Good vs Evil" which the far latter is highly subjective what you define what "Good" and "Evil" is.

Thing is I have a personal angle that Yahweh and Angels are the Patriarchal authority and the Status Quo who wants to subject human souls to his absolute rule and Lucifer and Demons are the rebels of that authority and aiming towards where humans are free of Yahweh's tyrannical rule so they have the right to self-determine their own destiny rather than Yahweh's. Of course the only problem is this is how damned souls are treated which I was wondering if it's possible for Demons to recruit damned souls to turn them into Demons for Hell's army and the neutrals...well, maybe depends on the Demon in question and how they treat them since they're used for essence?

Anyways I wonder if there's any Positive portrayals of Demons and Hell that doesn't make them all "Inherently Evil" "Eternal Torment" but rather present them as complex characters?

Anyways I wonder if it's possible to play In Nomine this way?

The easy way to do that is essence batteries are needed so soldiers that sided with them get special treatment, but souls that just end up there are essence batteries.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by Moonsight

From my readings so far about In Nomine, ...

2. Is it possible to portray Heaven and Hell as "morally grey" instead of "Black and White" and "Good vs Evil" which the far latter is highly subjective what you define what "Good" and "Evil" is.

I tend to play/run angel-centric campaigns, although the good guys in the end are humanity rather than either side. Rather than defining merely as Good vs Evil, I go with how canon explains the difference. Good is selflessness, which I further interpret as collective thinking. Evil is selfishness, which I interpret as every man for himself, in the end. Demons are still not to be trusted, since they'll turn on you when they don't see much benefit in keeping you around. Angels are no, er, angels either though, being vulnerable to groupthink and blindly following orders, orders given by a batch of highly powered bickering, well-intentioned and occasionally crazy siblings. I'm no optimist.

Humans at least can take either approach, hold contradictory stances, and can change.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Moonsight

From my readings so far about In Nomine, I'm getting the impression so far it has a Pro-Heaven slant especially how Heaven and Hell treats souls that the former are able to move freely using Jacob's ladder but of course they also serve God (hence hinting their servitude slaves) but Hell (which supposedly represents the rejection of God's patriarchal power and freedom), treats human souls as cattle, torturing for them essence which makes them irredeemably monstrous at first glance and makes one wonder that "How are demons even supposed to playable?"

In that style of game, demons can be playable the same way that antiheroes or villainous protagonists are playable. (Consider the D&D stereotype of "wandering murder-hobos" - that's the Shedim of Death in a nutshell.)

Originally Posted by Moonsight

I have several questions:

1. Do all damned souls receive eternal torment for their essence or some demons give some damned souls special treatment? I mean is there any Demons that don't treat human souls as cattle? Or I also wonder if pleasure/sex can be used to gain essence?

There are some demons who see the advantages of having human servitors - the Demon Prince Asmodeus has spies everywhere, and the "Demon" Princess Lilith is human herself, just to name two.

As for gaining Essence from sex, there are two Superiors who canonically allow this: the Demon Prince Andrealphus grants Essence for satisfying one's lust (where the one who gains the Essence is the one who gets the pleasure from the sex act), while the Archangel Eli grants Essence for making love (where both or all of the participants gain happiness from the sex act).

Originally Posted by Moonsight

2. Is it possible to portray Heaven and Hell as "morally grey" instead of "Black and White" and "Good vs Evil" which the far latter is highly subjective what you define what "Good" and "Evil" is.

Definitely, and there are rules for how to set the contrast between Heaven and Hell in the Game Master's Guide.

Originally Posted by Moonsight

Thing is I have a personal angle that Yahweh and Angels are the Patriarchal authority and the Status Quo who wants to subject human souls to his absolute rule and Lucifer and Demons are the rebels of that authority and aiming towards where humans are free of Yahweh's tyrannical rule so they have the right to self-determine their own destiny rather than Yahweh's. Of course the only problem is this is how damned souls are treated which I was wondering if it's possible for Demons to recruit damned souls to turn them into Demons for Hell's army and the neutrals...well, maybe depends on the Demon in question and how they treat them since they're used for essence?

Anyways I wonder if there's any Positive portrayals of Demons and Hell that doesn't make them all "Inherently Evil" "Eternal Torment" but rather present them as complex characters?

Anyways I wonder if it's possible to play In Nomine this way?

That's what we call "Backwards", and there are rules for that in the Game Master's Guide as well. In that sort of game, many but not all angels agree with the idea "kill them all, God will sort them out" and many but not all demons want to save humanity from being treated that poorly.

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

... Good is selflessness, which I further interpret as collective thinking. Evil is selfishness, which I interpret as every man for himself, in the end. ...

This is a valid and playable position, of course ... but if you apply Fridge Logic to selflessness, you can end up with the souls who reach Heaven and climb Jacob's Ladder becoming completely selfless and indistinguishable with each other. Of course, the idea of losing what makes oneself unique would horrify the demons... and would also horrify many humans, giving them common cause with Hell if they knew. (An aside: This may be why canonical In Nomine has Heaven supporting Buddhism - the concept of Nirvana is similar to what I just described.)

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by robkelk

...
This is a valid and playable position, of course ... but if you apply Fridge Logic to selflessness, you can end up with the souls who reach Heaven and climb Jacob's Ladder becoming completely selfless and indistinguishable with each other. Of course, the idea of losing what makes oneself unique would horrify the demons... and would also horrify many humans, giving them common cause with Hell if they knew. (An aside: This may be why canonical In Nomine has Heaven supporting Buddhism - the concept of Nirvana is similar to what I just described.)

Hell is hellish, but at least you continue to exist and exist as you. I'd rather cease to exist than be stripped down to a mockery of self to further some entity's army of soul-robots.

Also the idea of humans and demons joining hell because they hate bullies is wonderfully ironic.

[tHEhERETIC]

Originally Posted by robkelk

This is a valid and playable position, of course ... but if you apply Fridge Logic to selflessness, you can end up with the souls who reach Heaven and climb Jacob's Ladder becoming completely selfless and indistinguishable with each other. Of course, the idea of losing what makes oneself unique would horrify the demons... and would also horrify many humans, giving them common cause with Hell if they knew. (An aside: This may be why canonical In Nomine has Heaven supporting Buddhism - the concept of Nirvana is similar to what I just described.)

I'd say Fridge Horror, but that's just how I'm wired.

[Moonsight]

Originally Posted by tHEhERETIC

Demons are still not to be trusted, since they'll turn on you when they don't see much benefit in keeping you around.

Now I want to ask, does everysingle Demon do this or do they have to the "backstabbing" mentality? Of course when playing Demon characters, are you forced to turn on humans or each other that trusted you?

Making Demons backstabby that would turn on you makes them shallow characters in my opinion.

Basically I think the whole Hell and Heaven situation should be about Rebellion and Hedonism vs Authority and Asceticism.

Basically for example, I've been wondering if it's possible for Demons to value social justice and support leftist ideologies like marxism/communism/socialism, intersectional feminism, etc since they challenge the status quo which is Capitalism/Kyriarchy/Patriarchy that Heaven represents?

[panton41]

I got back into In Nomine after I saw The Devil's Carnival a few years ago. Around the time of its initial release the producer was already talking (and had some clips on YouTube) for a sequel where you'd see that Heaven wasn't exactly paradise and God (played by Paul Sorvino) was a bit of a madman. If I even get around to actually running an In Nomine game (or writing fiction inspired by it) it would probably be based on that line of thinking.

[Flyndaran]

God and Satan have quite different personalites in Job by Robert Heinlein. We do only have one side's version of events after all.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Moonsight

Now I want to ask, does everysingle Demon do this or do they have to the "backstabbing" mentality? Of course when playing Demon characters, are you forced to turn on humans or each other that trusted you?

Making Demons backstabby that would turn on you makes them shallow characters in my opinion.

Basically I think the whole Hell and Heaven situation should be about Rebellion and Hedonism vs Authority and Asceticism.

Basically for example, I've been wondering if it's possible for Demons to value social justice and support leftist ideologies like marxism/communism/socialism, intersectional feminism, etc since they challenge the status quo which is Capitalism/Kyriarchy/Patriarchy that Heaven represents?

Hmmmmm... Canonically, the Demon Princes Asmoedus and Kronos are all about authority, and Demon Prince Mammon is as right-wing as one can get financially. On the other side, Archangel Marc has no problem with socialism (communism is frowned upon by the Archangel of Trade; socialism is fine; telling the difference: is it a trade or a reallocation?), and Archangels Eli and Novalis don't care for asceticism at all. You'd have to do something about them.

And the very first published adventure had a group of angels and demons working together in a long-term stable group, so not all demons are backstabbity backstabbers (and not all angels are smitey smiters of evil).