Vehicle Allies and DR Pricing

[Ketsuban]

Let's say that I as a GM require that a mecha pilot character in my campaign spend 80% of his character points on their mecha to prevent the abuse experienced by this person where the pilot was almost as fearsome as the other PCs on top of having a giant transforming robot. The appropriate advantage would be Ally (Constantly; Summonable, +100%). What do they get out of it?

A 250-point character spends 200 points and gets an Ally built on 300% of their point total - 750 points. Alone, they're a 50-point character.
A 500-point character spends 400 points and gets an Ally built on 450% of their point total - 2250 points. Alone, they're a 100-point character.
A 750-point character spends 600 points and gets an Ally built on 700% of their point total - 5250 points. Alone they're a 150-point character.
A 1000-point character spends 800 points and gets an Ally built on 950% of their point total - 9500 points. Alone, they're a 200-point character.

There's already a problem here - the point value of the mecha is increasing far faster than the point value of the pilot.

Now, let's look at how much DR a tank (mecha are usually depicted alongside tanks, either as equals or outright demolishing them) has when statted with character points. I'll use the T-72A from High-Tech, p244.

DR 70 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Size, -40%) [70]
DR +20 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Top, -40%; Size, -40%) [20]
DR +95 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional, Right, -40%; Size, -40%) [95]
DR +95 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional, Left, -40%; Size, -40%) [95]
DR +95 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional, Back, -40%; Size, -40%) [95]
DR +1085 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional, Front, -20%; Size, -40%) [1085]
DR +110 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Top, -40%; Partial: Turret, -20%; Size, -40%) [110]
DR +350 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Right, -40%; Partial: Turret, -20%; Size, -40%) [350]
DR +350 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Left, -40%; Partial: Turret, -20%; Size, -40%) [350]
DR +350 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Back, -40%; Partial: Turret, -20%; Size, -40%) [350]
DR +1305 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Front, -20%; Partial: Turret, -20%; Size, -40%) [1305]

The total is just shy of 4000 points, and that's lowballing it because I haven't attempted to model the fact that the T-72A has spaced armour. This is out of the price range of the 250- and 500-point characters' mecha, and takes up the majority of the cost of the 750-point character's mecha. How do I have sufficiently rounded pilots outside of the mecha while also having mecha which aren't made out of tissue paper?

[Langy]

Don't use Allies for mecha! Best system I've seen for them would be in this month's Pyramid issue, actually, but if you really want to design the mechs as characters, just divorce the mech's point cost and the pilot's point cost entirely.

The mechs might be 5,000 CP while the pilots are 200 CP. Just leave it at that and be done with it - don't use the Ally advantage to model it, just dictate.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ketsuban

L
DR 70 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Size, -40%) [70]
DR +20 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Top, -40%; Size, -40%) [20]
DR +95 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional, Right, -40%; Size, -40%) [95]
DR +95 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional, Left, -40%; Size, -40%) [95]
DR +95 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional, Back, -40%; Size, -40%) [95]
DR +1085 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional, Front, -20%; Size, -40%) [1085]
DR +110 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Top, -40%; Partial: Turret, -20%; Size, -40%) [110]
DR +350 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Right, -40%; Partial: Turret, -20%; Size, -40%) [350]
DR +350 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Left, -40%; Partial: Turret, -20%; Size, -40%) [350]
DR +350 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Back, -40%; Partial: Turret, -20%; Size, -40%) [350]
DR +1305 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%; Directional: Front, -20%; Partial: Turret, -20%; Size, -40%) [1305]

While the pricing of linear traits (including DR) is problematic, this is horribly inefficient even so. This is equivalent to:
DR 70, CWA
DR +20 (doesn't cover belly, -5%) (total 90 on top)
DR +75 (doesn't cover top or belly, -10%) (total 165 on sides)
DR +90 (turret only, -20%) (total 180 on top, 255 on turret sides)
DR +165 (turret only, -20%; doesn't cover top, -5%) (total 420 turret sides)
DR +35 (front only, -20%; body only, -5%)
DR +955 (front of turret and body only, 20%) (total 1055 front, 1375 TF)

[Ketsuban]

Originally Posted by Langy

Best system I've seen for them would be in this month's Pyramid issue, actually,

I'm not a fan of the system in Pyramid - Spaceships does the same thing it does and has all the same problems (too abstract, eggshells with hammers).

Originally Posted by Anthony

While the pricing of linear traits (including DR) is problematic, this is horribly inefficient even so.

Can I see a more full write-up of the thought process behind your "doesn't cover --" limitations? It seems like you've got a theoretical framework from tearing apart Directional and Partial which is letting you price those, but without seeing that I'm not willing to give this an okay.

I considered a different system whereby I started by applying DR 165 all over and then subtracting DR from the top and bottom, but the pricing felt awkward to me.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Ketsuban

I'm not a fan of the system in Pyramid - Spaceships does the same thing it does and has all the same problems (too abstract, eggshells with hammers).

Sure, it's abstract, but it works wonderfully. And yeah, eggshells with hammers, but that's what happens when you have UT combat no matter what you do. Only way around that is massive amounts of ablative DR, Injury Tolerance (Damage Resistance), or... actually, that's about it. Well, maybe massive HP totals, too, but that'd violate some GURPS assumptions like how HP tracks with mass.

Also: The Spaceships system isn't all that abstract for Mech generation (at all, really) once you add in some of the optional rules available. Can even handle differently-armored facings very well.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Ketsuban

I'm not a fan of the system in Pyramid - Spaceships does the same thing it does and has all the same problems (too abstract, eggshells with hammers).

For the "eggshells with hammers" problem, I'd suggest taking a look at some of the damage- and HP-scaling options in Pyramid 3/34. In particular, the alternate area-based HP calculations make big vehicles far more durable. This would give the stock Light Mecha 380 HP, the Medium 480 HP, and the Heavy 613 HP. I'd have the +HP design option add +100 to Light, +120 to Medium and +150 to Heavy (roughly +25%). Their DR is probably fine; it's the equivalent of a dozen or more layers of Spaceship's TL 10 Nanocomposite (presumably because Spaceship's armor rules are junk, giving ships far too little protection compared to UT defenses).

[Langy]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

For the "eggshells with hammers" problem, I'd suggest taking a look at some of the damage- and HP-scaling options in Pyramid 3/34. In particular, the alternate area-based HP calculations make big vehicles far more durable. This would give the stock Light Mecha 380 HP, the Medium 480 HP, and the Heavy 613 HP. I'd have the +HP design option add +100 to Light, +120 to Medium and +150 to Heavy (roughly +25%). Their DR is probably fine; it's the equivalent of a dozen or more layers of Spaceship's TL 10 Nanocomposite (presumably because Spaceship's armor rules are junk, giving ships far too little protection compared to UT defenses).

Naw; it's probably because these vehicles are insanely heavy for their size. The Light Mecha is 25 tons - just five less than an SM+5 ship in Spaceships, but it's SM+3 here.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Langy

Naw; it's probably because these vehicles are insanely heavy for their size. The Light Mecha is 25 tons - just five less than an SM+5 ship in Spaceships, but it's SM+3 here.

Oh, good point. It's probably benefiting from something like the Armor Volume rules (again from Pyramid 3/34), making them extremely dense, with 60% to 80% of their mass as armor plating. That still leaves their armor at roughly double the strength of Spaceship's armor, which is appropriate considering SS uses cheaper and weaker plating than UT.

To avoid derailing this thread, I'll post my further musings in the Pryamid 3/51 thread.

[JCurwen3]

I wonder how much having KITT (car from Knight Rider) would be worth, as a character and as an Ally...