04-24-2017, 06:27 AM | #31 | |
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: Balanced games for archers
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The trick here is to figure out what bits of reality you need to ignore or alter to make the game interesting. It's not like realistic melee fighters average more than a few minutes of exciting combat per lifetime either. GURPS archers already do get a few of those too (bows in GURPS, and pretty much all other RPGs hit more often, and do more damage than in reality), but maybe not enough of them. I do think rate of fire is a lot of it, melee fighters get to do something interesting every turn, archers spend half their turns doing boring Ready actions. And the range penalties mean often when they do get to do something, it turns out to be miss for no effect, so something for reducing or ignoring range penalties at short ranges is helpful too. For more detailed combat the lack of cool techniques is something of a problem too, adapting stuff from Gun Fu has some potential to compensate for that. The interesting variety of melee weapons can somewhat be offset by offering specialty arrows (and no, most of them aren't realistic either), or a broader range of quality options for bows, if you can come up with any bonuses for them you are willing to suspend disbelief in.
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04-24-2017, 07:04 AM | #32 |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Denmark
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Re: Balanced games for archers
A few things to consider regarding ranged attacks:
* You can't parry an arrow. (Unless using cinematic rules). Parry if often the main defense for melee fighters. Having to rely on Dodge is a big penalty. * You can't make a retreating dodge against a ranged attack. The only way to boost your dodge is by making dodge and drop, and that just gives the archer more time to shoot you. * If you can move to shoot someone in the side, they get -2 penalty to defense. *If a large group of enemies storm at you close together (like in a corridor), it's not unreasonable to treat them as one big target giving a bonus to hit if you don't care who you hit. I add the number of targets and add a bonus equal to the speed range penalty. So 7 zombies coming at you down a corridor gives a +3 bonus to hit. (This is instead of the very cumbersome rules for stray shots). I also allow All out Ready for two actions of ready in a turn. Last edited by Maz; 04-24-2017 at 07:10 AM. |
04-24-2017, 08:18 AM | #34 |
Hero of Democracy
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
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Re: Balanced games for archers
The observation that the problem might be the players keep on getting ambushed or starting fights in the middle of conversations is a good one. Gurps heavily rewards good tactical setups, and your players aren't getting these.
You may want to suggest that your players invest more heavily in Perception. You may also want to suggest that the ranged characters hang back during encounters that may go south.
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04-24-2017, 08:36 AM | #35 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
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Re: Balanced games for archers
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Sure, you can stage combats wherein the archers are featured, but in any instance that isn't staged they'll go right back to being support. I don't see how you can really change this without going cinematic. |
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04-24-2017, 09:37 AM | #36 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: The former Chochenyo territory
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Re: Balanced games for archers
Combat pace can be an issue too. If the turns are happening more frequently, the archer PCs may feel less left out. Make the melee guys roll faster :)
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04-24-2017, 12:15 PM | #37 | |
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: Balanced games for archers
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And I really do think that first one is the biggest problem - letting the melee fighters do something every turn but making the archers spend half of them reloading automatically makes the archers feel less useful. I think it's a large part of why starting the fight at longer ranges helps, the archers get to do something while the melee fighters are taking uninteresting "Move and Nothing" maneuvers to close the range.
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04-24-2017, 12:30 PM | #38 |
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Re: Balanced games for archers
As clarified, the main thrust of the problem seemed to be the down time from the fact that archers attack at best on every other round, and often longer (without Fast-Draw or Aiming). So I agree: one partial remedy is to make sure the combat turns flow quickly. If your melee players are the sort that feel compelled to carefully count every movement point, checking and rechecking their path on the hex grid to squeeze out one hex closer or just skirt range that one attacker, then you'll have to convince them not to do so. One thing that might help is just setting a time limit, pointing out that even 15 seconds to finish your move is still fifteen times faster than the turn length.
Ultimately, though, there's no realistic fix for that problem other than to make melee slower (perhaps by making Evaluates or Feints something that have to get used in most melee situations). Or you can speed up archery (by doing away with the reloading and aiming delays). Heroic Archer helps some with the second point. If the players really expect to lay down impenetrable withering arcs of fire with their bow, perhaps you should switch to modern equipment and let them find full-auto weapons. (Or just make low-tech ranged weapons cheesier so bows can do the equivalent, in the best tradition of Diablo. Rapid-fire options like that video that was running around a while back, or multi-shot tricks, and so on, just so the players get to roll an attack every turn.) |
04-24-2017, 12:51 PM | #39 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: Balanced games for archers
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Also to refer back to a point I made earlier, having over watching archers will make it a bit easier for melee fighters to take a breather. Last edited by Tomsdad; 04-24-2017 at 01:18 PM. |
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04-24-2017, 08:57 PM | #40 | ||||||
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Re: Balanced games for archers
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But otherwise yes, good points about arrows having clear advantages over melee attacks once they hit. Quote:
Cool, glad to know I'm not the only one having, or considering having, house rules for this kind of stuff. Quote:
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However I have a few GURPS newbies at the table so I'm giving everyone some extra time these days, and I'll reintroduce the rule of 3 in a couple sessions. I'm maybe thinking of doing it the other way, actually, i.e. make melee fighting more realistic (in addition to improving my combat situations by making more interesting environments/NPCs/tactics, of course). This would mean nerfing melee fighters a bit by introducing optional rules like Situational Awareness or Fatigue Spending... this would remove the ability for them to attack every turn in combat, making it both less frustrating for archers, and adding a new tactical dimension. Last edited by lordabdul; 04-24-2017 at 10:54 PM. |
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