[RPM] Some questions about Path of Magic ?

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by PK

My instinct is to say that an area effect ward vs. magic will resist missile spells (and other external attacks which are 100% created by a ritual) that cross its threshold. After all, the hostile mage can just walk through the ward to get around that problem. But I think it's cheating to say that a subject protected by a personal ward is now potentially immune to stone missiles, lightning, etc.

I would be fine from a plausibility point of view for most Missile spells.
Even a spell that say conjured Lightning from the sky with the rational that you needed to cast the targeting point inside the ward so it knows where to go.
On the other hand a blast of wind or a hurled (not created) rock would not be blocked.

[Engurrand]

Originally Posted by PK

So this needs to be a FAQ, which means it needs a bit of consideration.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Agreed.

I appreciated the measured consideration, as always. Thank you both!

Originally Posted by PK

It's tempting to say that a missile spell is certainly "a hostile spell," definition on p. 24 be damned. But that opens up a slippery slope -- sure, an impossible-in-nature ball of flame being thrown across the street feels like something a ward should affect, but what about a conjured rock? Or a summoned sword? Wards vs magic aren't supposed to be force-fields that block physical attacks; they're protection against being mind controlled, turned into a toad, having your liver turned to ice, and so on.

An anti-vampire ward works like an invisible force field against the vampire, who must resist with his strength if she wishes to cross. I always assumed an anti-magic ward would work the same way - an invisible force-field against spells.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

The latter part of the last sentence is honestly how I've always seen this working. It's what makes a ward + a magic shield or the like so synergistically awesome. The ward protects vs. hostile direct attacks the shield blocks hostile indirect attacks.

In a game with only witches, this would provide a nuanced and textured battlefield full of cool strategy, and often requiring teamwork to boost each-other's defenses. I could see that being really fun. But in my game, we only have one witch at a time, and the rest of the group needs a general countermeasure against witches maybe even more than they need a general countermeasure against vampires or whatnot.

Originally Posted by PK

My instinct is to say that an area effect ward vs. magic will resist missile spells (and other external attacks which are 100% created by a ritual) that cross its threshold. After all, the hostile mage can just walk through the ward to get around that problem. But I think it's cheating to say that a subject protected by a personal ward is now potentially immune to stone missiles, lightning, etc.

If you use control matter to pick up a mundane stone and chuck it, then I can see why it would pass over the ward no problem. But if you use create matter to make a rock, doesn't it have a duration? I mean it will vanish when the spell ends, so it's essentially magic energy masquerading as a rock. Maybe I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I think that could work, but perhaps since all ward spells are Lesser effects maybe blocking external effects as well makes them Greater. Using that logic you can just say a ward as a Lesser effect either stops direct attacks or indirect attack. So "this ward stops direct attacks, watch out for fireballs" or "this ward stops only indirect attacks, I hope the witch didn't get any of your blood because she can stop you heart if she did." If it does both, then it's a Greater effect.

Since wards resist hostile spells based on the skill used to cast them, not their energy cost, making them a greater effect wouldn't change their effectiveness (except when trying to dispel them). This idea makes sense. The only reason I can think of not to do it would be to avoid the additional complexity.

In play, an anti-magic ward does not stop all incoming magic. It resists all incoming magic with a quick contest. That's an important distinction. If the enemy caster is skilled and/or clever, then there are plenty of ways around it even if it blocks missile spells and conjured swords, including just overpowering it with a higher skill level. So far in my experience the general case "AoE wards challenge all magic crossing their threshold not specifically excluded by the caster" has been rapid to GM adjudicate, intuitive to the players, and certainly not OP. That said, I definitely see the arguments for a more nuanced approach.

[Engurrand]

Originally Posted by 4rc4num

1. About Wards, can a Path of Magic ward block "missile spell" like "fireball" ?

3. Can Path of Magic create "magic missile" ? If yes, is possible to add the damage modifier "explosion" to a Path of Magic missile ? Plus, the missile is invisible like ambient mana ?

4. Again about the missile spell, is possible to make a "homing" missile with Path of Magic ?

Back to the OP, this adds an interesting nuance to the ward question. Suppose you have a spell like this:

Magic Missile: Greater Create Magic, Lesser Control Magic, with Damage (external, Homing, and RoF equal to dice of damage). Treat each dice of damage as a separate homing projectile, fired shotgun style. Use innate attack to lock on to the target, then loose your fistful of missiles and they fly to the target at move 10, max range 100.

If you permit an AoE anti-magic ward to stop missile spells as we've been discussing... would those missiles be one spell or many spells?
Or in the general sense, would a missile spell that splits up it's damage among multiple projectiles have to defeat the ward with each attack, or only once?

[GarenLiLorian]

Originally Posted by Engurrand

Back to the OP, this adds an interesting nuance to the ward question. Suppose you have a spell like this:

Magic Missile: Greater Create Magic, Lesser Control Magic, with Damage (external, Homing, and RoF equal to dice of damage). Treat each dice of damage as a separate homing projectile, fired shotgun style. Use innate attack to lock on to the target, then loose your fistful of missiles and they fly to the target at move 10, max range 100.

If you permit an AoE anti-magic ward to stop missile spells as we've been discussing... would those missiles be one spell or many spells?
Or in the general sense, would a missile spell that splits up it's damage among multiple projectiles have to defeat the ward with each attack, or only once?

First off, I'd personally be leery of opening the door to using path of Magic to create material effects such as damage, altered traits, etc. There's a slippery slope argument to be made that any magical effect could be done using path of Magic instead of another path (I'm making a rock out of Magic: Create Magic. I'm magically enhancing muscles: Strengthen Magic. I'm transforming that guy into a toad using magic: Transform Magic) Personally, if someone wanted to make a Magic Missile spell per That Other Game, I'd call it Path of Energy to Create force and do crushing damage.

But, personally, I think RoF on a spell should challenge the ward for each projectile. It's more interesting: Makes such projectiles into fairly effective ward breakers, and varies the amount of damage that someone might take from an all or nothing approach.

[Edges]

Is looks like GURPS is running into the tip of the anti-magic iceberg that is discussed in Ars Magica to no end. No matter how you define your magic ward as functioning, undesired consequences are in the edge cases.

[sir_pudding]

Note that D&D magic missiles do "force" damage and therefore probably ought not be path of magic.

[4rc4num]

First of all, thanks a lot for everyone who aswered the questions, specially Ghostdancer and PK, aka RPM creator!

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

No, that's an external effect. The magic is to create the effect - once its created its not magical anymore.

Interesting, but this create one logic problem: how the missile can float in the caster hand without being a spell (gravity will pull down the missile and a fireball will burn the hand, etc) ?

Another question:

6. A missile in the caster hand can be dispelled with a Destroy Magic effect ? If yes, then it is a spell and can be affected by Path of Magic spell, right ?

Plus a interesting question:

7. If a missile float in caster hand then make more sense to be a Create + Control ritual, right ? Without the Control effect the missile will "fall" because of gravity... but if we add Control to the spell make sense in rolling "innate attack skill" to throw ?

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Yes. That's a Control effect. Depending on the subject the Path will change: all forms of energy will require Path of Energy, physical items like bullets or arrows will require Path of Matter.

Please, share with us your opinion if a control spell need to pay the META spell modifier to change the direction of a missile spell ?

[4rc4num]

Originally Posted by PK

As written, a ward vs. magic stops "hostile spells" from being "cast on the subject or into the area," where a hostile spell is defined as one which the subject attempts to resist. Unfortunately, the rules in neither GT:RPM nor DF19 explicitly discuss missile spells, which are (by definition) neither resisted nor cast directly onto a subject.

So this needs to be a FAQ, which means it needs a bit of consideration.

It's tempting to say that a missile spell is certainly "a hostile spell," definition on p. 24 be damned. But that opens up a slippery slope -- sure, an impossible-in-nature ball of flame being thrown across the street feels like something a ward should affect, but what about a conjured rock? Or a summoned sword? Wards vs magic aren't supposed to be force-fields that block physical attacks; they're protection against being mind controlled, turned into a toad, having your liver turned to ice, and so on.

My instinct is to say that an area effect ward vs. magic will resist missile spells (and other external attacks which are 100% created by a ritual) that cross its threshold. After all, the hostile mage can just walk through the ward to get around that problem. But I think it's cheating to say that a subject protected by a personal ward is now potentially immune to stone missiles, lightning, etc.

1st, a FAQ is brilliant idea !

2nd, looks more fair to cast a Greater Destroy Magic+ Meta+ AoE + Duration to create a "Ward that block missiles conjuured with magic" ? Looks fair to me, dont remenber if some rule forbid to add Duration to a dispell

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by PK

As written, a ward vs. magic stops "hostile spells" from being "cast on the subject or into the area," where a hostile spell is defined as one which the subject attempts to resist. Unfortunately, the rules in neither GT:RPM nor DF19 explicitly discuss missile spells, which are (by definition) neither resisted nor cast directly onto a subject.

My instinct is to say that an area effect ward vs. magic will resist missile spells (and other external attacks which are 100% created by a ritual) that cross its threshold. After all, the hostile mage can just walk through the ward to get around that problem. But I think it's cheating to say that a subject protected by a personal ward is now potentially immune to stone missiles, lightning, etc.

Does this mean that a Ward vs Demons will not stop the Demon from throwing a fireball at you, or is that different?

[calmquist]

Originally Posted by Tinman

Does this mean that a Ward vs Demons will not stop the Demon from throwing a fireball at you, or is that different?

According to p. 25, it should resist the demon "that tries to harm the subject in any way or tries to cross (or attack across)" the ward. As written, it should stop the fireball because it was a demon that threw it.

Personally, I might allow a demon to throw mundane rocks or shoot mundane guns across a ward. I might even allow it to use a magic item powered by non-demon magic. I would rule that no part of the demon's body or any supernatural effect created from the demon's power could cross the ward unhindered (unless it already broke through of course). I would probably rule that any demon powered effect used by a non-demon would also be resisted.

PK and other GMs are free to disagree of course.