[heretical] Grayer than usual: Lilith, Dreamshade Elder of Freedom?

[ISNorden]

I'm not incorporating this idea into my official campaign, but if someone wanted to go even more "sideways" than I already have then it's worth a thought. What if Lilith had refused both God's will to serve Adam, and Satan's offer to become a Princess in Hell? Her decision may well have spawned a Legend that anchored Lilith to the Deep Marches as the first and most powerful dreamshade...a Superior-strength ethereal, equal at least to a minor Archangel or Prince.

In this alternate Symphony, Lilith may even have been responsible for the original Defections that established the Marches as a full-fledged third side in the War--first, persuading some Outcast Grigori to become Na'aim; and later, tempting other celestials to join the resistance. Lilith would govern a Ward in the City of Refuge (dedicated to preserving true Freedom from both Heaven and Hell), if she didn't rule the whole City outright.

By now you're probably wondering: what about the Lilim? Simple--Lilith never spawned them, since she never developed the necessary ties with Hell. If the GM really wants similar demons in an "ethereal Lilith" game, he could always include a Prince of the Deal and make the Tempters his signature Band. Personally, I'd give Mephistopheles from Faust that Word--and call his special servitors the Mephites, with abilities identical to canon Lilim but no gender restriction.

Any thoughts on the changes I suggested above? A three-sided War doesn't have to go this far, but I'm throwing the ideas out there... :)

[Phoenix42]

Sounds good - one might consider making Lilith less ethereal and more human (she is, after all), so her domain may actually be the corporeal realm - doesn't fit your idea of the celestial-ethereal-celestial war, but I think that could be interesting - human rebels against the celestial and ethereal parties could be (maybe unknowingly) in service to her.

Another add-on for Hell could be to simply cut out the wish-granters, and go more toward the actual demonic pacts, with writing etc. Those exist in original IN for soldiers, but are (I always felt) overshadowed by the power of the lilim to basically ad-lib the whole thing (although they can't make you lose your soul due to a Geas - or can they?). If one went more toward the pact-aspect, then one could think about how formal these pacts would have to be, but that's another story...

[dataweaver]

Another option would be to keep the Lilim, but as Ethereals. In canon, Lilith is in the unique position that she can have three different kinds of children: the Celestial Lilim, Ethereal Figments from her Dreamscape, and Corporeal human children. The third is unlikely to occur in any significant numbers, as Lilith doesn't strike me as the type who would willingly go through a pregnancy; but Figments are a definite possibility, and I could definitely see Lilith's Figments being crafty enough to have a higher-than-normal incidence of acquiring the Celestial Force necessary to become independent of their Mother.

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Another option would be to keep the Lilim, but as Ethereals. In canon, Lilith is in the unique position that she can have three different kinds of children: the Celestial Lilim, Ethereal Figments from her Dreamscape, and Corporeal human children. The third is unlikely to occur in any significant numbers, as Lilith doesn't strike me as the type who would willingly go through a pregnancy; but Figments are a definite possibility, and I could definitely see Lilith's Figments being crafty enough to have a higher-than-normal incidence of acquiring the Celestial Force necessary to become independent of their Mother.

Lilith's Figment-children, being ethereal, couldn't get a resonance of any kind; they'd have to rely on Songs, servitor Attunements, or both to read Needs. (A secret Song that's the equivalent of the standard Lilim Resonance...I could see Hell desperately trying to court the Gray Daughters for that knowledge!)

[dataweaver]

Don't Ethereals have Thread-based powers, or something along those lines? I would expect the Ethereal Lilim to have a Primal Thread of Freedom (I don't have EPG handy, so I'm winging it on the terminology).

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Sounds good - one might consider making Lilith less ethereal and more human (she is, after all), so her domain may actually be the corporeal realm - doesn't fit your idea of the celestial-ethereal-celestial war, but I think that could be interesting - human rebels against the celestial and ethereal parties could be (maybe unknowingly) in service to her.

Lilith, like any other human, would still have been mortal in the beginning--and still gone to some other realm eventually. Since she refused allegiance to either Heaven or Hell in this scenario, the only way she could remain a "permanent ghost" is as a dreamshade...there are no stories identifying her place of death or an object important to her. Lilith would probably respect later ethereals as human creations, too: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I also see humanity and the Marches as part of the same side in the War, spiritually speaking: people in many cultures want to preserve their dreams and stories as part of who they are. Blandine, Beleth, and some angel-friendly ethereals may disagree--but you see where I'm coming from, right?
:-) There will always be militant materialists resisting ANY spiritual intrusion into the Corporeal, but those people aren't organized as strongly as the other factions.

Originally Posted by Phoenix42

Another add-on for Hell could be to simply cut out the wish-granters, and go more toward the actual demonic pacts, with writing etc. Those exist in original IN for soldiers, but are (I always felt) overshadowed by the power of the lilim to basically ad-lib the whole thing (although they can't make you lose your soul due to a Geas - or can they?). If one went more toward the pact-aspect, then one could think about how formal these pacts would have to be, but that's another story...

I'd definitely agree that selling a soul is a heftier price than a year of service or some extremely difficult act--which is all that canon Lilim can demand on a single level 6 Geas. That kind of pact would have to be made directly with a Prince...but trading lesser favors with lesser demons is part of the fun in canon, as well. That's the main reason I suggested adding a Prince of the Deal to take over Lilith's canonical job (which she couldn't fulfill without the demonic connection).

[ISNorden]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

Don't Ethereals have Thread-based powers, or something along those lines? I would expect the Ethereal Lilim to have a Primal Thread of Freedom (I don't have EPG handy, so I'm winging it on the terminology).

I have the EPG buried somewhere, all right; so Ethereal Lilim would draw on a Freedom Thread of some kind...though the relevant powers and sub-types would need defining in game terms, first. Anyone else who could help with some starting descriptions, please?

[dataweaver]

OK; I've been meaning to buy the digital EPG for a while now; so I just did. I think that what we'd be dealing with for Lilith's Ethereals (whether she's a Demon Princess or an Elder Dream Shade) would be spirits with an Individual Strand (an unusual subtype of the Society Elements, which normally deal with the likes of Culture, Nations, the Family, the Pack, and the Tribe): "An
invisible net of social pressures, punishments, and rewards, these elements surround every living mind. Even the animals are not immune. They love; they grieve; they know the bond between parent and child; they gather in packs. The fishers who wield this invisible net are the spirits of Society. Peerlessly skilled at the arts of interpersonal relations, these spirits radiate natural charisma, manipulate others brilliantly, and match-make as few others can." The section goes on to talk about how some of the more broadly-scoped Society Elements tend to overlook the individual; my contention would be that the Individual Element would be a direct counterpoint to that.

Spirits can learn the following Resources from Society strands:
@ Fitting Knowledges (e.g., Sociology, Psychology, Culture X);
@ Detect Lies, Emote, Fast-Talk, Lying, Savoir-Faire, and Seduction;
@ The Songs of Attraction (Ethereal, Celestial), Charm, Harmony (Corporeal, Ethereal), Possession, or Tongues;
@ The Liber Canticorum Songs of Affinity (Ethereal), Opening (Ethereal, Celestial), Solace (Corporeal, Ethereal), or Unity (Ethereal).
Suggested Affinities include:
@ Animals [Pack/Tribe], Deception, Entrancement, Glamour, Motherhood.

Nice in general; but something's missing: I think we need a Geas-like Affinity that a Spirit of Society can use to enforce "proper behavior" in the context of whatever type of Society it represents. A spirit of the Family would use it to ensure that parents receive proper deference and children are taken care of; a Nation spirit would use it to put a supernatural oomph behind the laws of the land. An Individual spirit would use it in much the same way that a Lilim uses her Geasa: to enforce the terms of a contract freely entered into.

[ISNorden]

Sounds promising, dataweaver! Would it be too much of a stretch to put reading Needs under the Individual strand as well? (The things a person lacks in his life are part of what defines him...) If it does fit, would Lilith's Figment-children roll against Perception or some other stat?

[dataweaver]

Think of it in terms of Society: what it's supposed to do for you, and what you're supposed to do for it. For an Individual Strand, this becomes "what privileges/rights/authority do you seek, and what obligations are you willing to accept to acquire them?" I could see the Affinity in question having two powers associated with it: a perception-based one that lets you identify what the person is supposed to get from the Society, and another one that enforces what he's supposed to contribute to the Society.

In more general terms, something like this really ought to exist in In Nomine proper: the faerie should be able to be Ethereal counterparts to the Lilim, Ethereal masters of the pledge.