Release the Geas!

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

All right, let's take this a step further out. Suppose you have Geased yourself to do something or not do something for a period of time. Can you drop your own Geas and eat the dissonance? Or are you pretty much stuck until the Geas expires?

No, you can't drop your own Geas on yourself, for "that would be wimpy" reasons; a Geas should be more than a Quirk. (Though even one note of dissonance is a non-trivial upset, and should be roleplayed as uncomfortable, at least... It's going to be a -1 to resonance rolls, and a GM might house-rule that it would be a +1 for people to resist the Lilim invoking a Geas-hook as well...)

For Symphonic handwaving... You were willing when you took it. You were in the ultimate Lilim selfish feedback of shackling your own self, of your own free will. If you were planning to ignore the self-Geas entirely (and not weasel-word it), then it would have failed, as much as it would fail if Joe Demon said, "Sure, I'm willing to accept your Geas... (NOT!)"

You can defy your self-Geas, for the normal dissonance involved, of course. That's the price of going back on a promise you made to yourself, and if you're a Lilim, All Things Have A Price. (A Lilim who was planning to eat dissonance to defy a self-Geas could probably self-Geas herself fine... and then eat dissonance. Gotta watch out for those sneaky green wenches.)

Howzat?

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

You can defy your self-Geas, for the normal dissonance involved, of course. That's the price of going back on a promise you made to yourself, and if you're a Lilim, All Things Have A Price. (A Lilim who was planning to eat dissonance to defy a self-Geas could probably self-Geas herself fine... and then eat dissonance. Gotta watch out for those sneaky green wenches.)

Howzat?

I'm not sure I understand exactly how that last works.

On another front: Say I self geased to call Sabrina when I saw Howard. I see Howard but am not near a phone/ am being watched/ am a prisoner. How exactly would you run the Dissonance? Each time you see him? One per day?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

I'm not sure I understand exactly how that last works.

If I understand her, she's saying a Lilim can make a promise she has no intention of keeping, so long as she's willing to take the dissonance hit. So if I hate Sammy the Samingan Soldier and am willing to take a few chances, I can swear a geas that he will be completely safe in my house tonight ... and then use the opportunity to kill him in his sleep. Dissonant, yes, but the problem is solved, so long as word of the betrayal doesn't get around.

On another front: Say I self geased to call Sabrina when I saw Howard. I see Howard but am not near a phone/ am being watched/ am a prisoner. How exactly would you run the Dissonance? Each time you see him? One per day?

Since the promise is "When I see Howard, I will call Sabrina," I would ping the dissonance every time she sees him without calling. That feels the truest to the spirit of the promise.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by JCD

On another front: Say I self geased to call Sabrina when I saw Howard. I see Howard but am not near a phone/ am being watched/ am a prisoner. How exactly would you run the Dissonance? Each time you see him? One per day?

Rocket Man has translated the first bit right. For the next bit -- how would you run it if Sabrina had geased you to call her when you saw Howard?

(I like the "every time you see him and don't call" timing -- though I wouldn't get stupid "you blinked and he was still there when you opened your eyes! Dissonance!" or "you turned your head away for a moment, and he was still there when you looked back! Dissonance!" about it.)

[Azel]

I, personally, would rule it as "per opportunity" and rate dissonance as such. Just like it would be dissonant for an Ofanite to be in jail and not make the effort to escape, I would rate the same the situation for the Lilim. The Ofanite ends up in jail for the first time and doesn't attempt to escape -- dissonance. The next time when the jail door opens after a few hours (whether a new person is being put in OR a guard with keys is bringing in food -- and you have Eth Motion) that would be considered another opportunity to rack dissonance.

In the same way the Lilim in this other situation would have to operate in a similar manner. If she sees Howard and does not try at all, ding! But it's not instantaneous -- I'll allow planning (that's what PC private notes to the GM are for). However, if the first opportunity is deliberately passed -- and receives dissonance -- when the next opportunity comes up (such as a phone appears, no longer watched, prisoner in transfer, etc) the Lilim should attempt again -- and if not, receives another point of dissonance.

What time frame that opportunity is is dependent upon the role playing situation. I cannot give it a time frame because otherwise it's an abusive move by the GM: I could render the Lilim in something as helpless as a Force Catcher (or whatever) and leave it parked in front of Howard, making the Lilim a puddle of discord easily -- where's the role playing interaction there?
Sounds like I'm being extra generous to PCs, but honestly role playing is not a competition between the GM and PC. They'd lose every time otherwise.

I key the opportunity and its failure on the components of what defines a right: a power, capacity, privilege, and immunity. Opportunity is keyed upon whether the PC has a power and capacity. I key failure upon whether the PC capitulates in the face of a lack of privilege and immunity. So, if you have no power to do or ability to act then I cannot justly call that an opportunity against the PC. However, if you have power and capacity to do, but give up out of fear of not being allowed and protected to do in the face of severe punishment, THEN you will be punished by denying your own nature.

If you honestly attempt and fail, I'm not going to ding you as a GM. Failure due to interference or disability is excusable, failure due to anxiety-based inaction is not. That's how I'd rule the difference.

[JCD]

That's just it: if there is no valid opportunity, should she get Dissonance? A Lilim is in a Kansas Cornfield sans purse who sees Howard has an obligation but not the means.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by JCD

That's just it: if there is no valid opportunity, should she get Dissonance? A Lilim is in a Kansas Cornfield sans purse who sees Howard has an obligation but not the means.

Given the nature of a Lilim, I'm going to say it depends on what was asked and how it was worded.

"As soon as I see Howard, I will call Sabrina." That burns her, even if she sees him high in the Rockies with no cell signal.

"When I see Howard, I will call Sabrina at the first opportunity." Now she's protected against "forgot my purse" and similar problems ... but the minute she passes a phone she can use, or knows that her cell is working, or otherwise becomes aware of a means to call Sabrina, she HAS to use it, or become dissonant.

"When I see Howard, I will call Sabrina within 24 hours." Now you've got the whole day to play with ... just don't get knocked out, or abducted, or lost in the middle of Rocky Mountain National Park.

"When I see Howard, I will make an effort to contact Sabrina within 24 hours." She is now safe if she telephones, e-mails, uses Celestial Tongues, mails a letter, Geases someone getting on a Grayhound to deliver a note, or maybe even drops a message in a bottle and drops it in a river that flows through Sabrina's hometown ... so long as it's done the same day. You have security, but at the possible cost of efficiency.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by JCD

That's just it: if there is no valid opportunity, should she get Dissonance? A Lilim is in a Kansas Cornfield sans purse who sees Howard has an obligation but not the means.

She chose to accept the Geas, so I'd say she should suffer the consequence if she can't fulfill it.

For comparison, see the FAQ entry "Do Servitors of Janus gain dissonance if they are held in one place against their will for more than three days?" Windies chose to serve Janus instead of another Archangel, and they have to accept the rules that go with that choice.

Edit: And Rocket Man has offered some ways to not accept that Geas in the first place...

[Azel]

Originally Posted by JCD

That's just it: if there is no valid opportunity, should she get Dissonance? A Lilim is in a Kansas Cornfield sans purse who sees Howard has an obligation but not the means.

Well she doesn't have the means immediately, but she can quickly put herself in a situation where she can. She should feel like a doofus for not being prepared, but alas she is powerless to fulfill her geas instantaneously. That does mean though that unless she is incapable of going celestial and/or running immediately to the next town, she should feel tingling warnings about becoming dissonant. If she THEN chooses to do nothing, then she is dissonant.

I would rule she should make post-haste to the nearest phone, post office, person with song of Celestial Tongues, whatever so she can avoid dissonance. The only exception I would give is if she plans to stalk Howard on the way to the nearest call opportunity. This needs planning in accord with GM instead of staying silent though. Giving late but good quality fulfillment does outrank immediate but poor/useless fulfillment. What value does a lost mark with vague directions compare with a still spotted mark and a more precise location? Then it becomes a contest of spirit vs. letter of a promise.

Further, I would rank said self-geas as poorly worded and a good lesson for the Lilim in the future. Get your PCs used to some legalese, it's a healthy survival trait.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by Azel

Just like it would be dissonant for an Ofanite to be in jail and not make the effort to escape,

What?

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Given the nature of a Lilim, I'm going to say it depends on what was asked and how it was worded.

*beth gives RM a cookie* Yes, exactly. Lilim word Geases carefully for a reason.