Lilith and her favors - Page 2

Attercap · 04-20-2009, 03:14 PM

I don't have my books on hand, but I'm almost positive that the Hearts of Free Lilim are kept in the Guildhall. Otherwise, there'd be a lot of Free Lilim in Limbo.

Heart shattering (regardless if you're a Free Lilim or a Shedite of Death), is a tricky affair, as it should be kept secret for as long as possible. The moment someone notices that the demonic Heart has been shattered it's probably going to be reported and the moment it's reported... well, Asmodeus isn't going to be too happy.

However, Asmodeus doesn't always find out. I ran a session where the demonic PCs were hoping to track down a renegade before anyone else discovered the shattered Heart.

ladyarcana55 · 04-20-2009, 03:17 PM

But how would he find out?

Doesn't someone have to report it to him? And I thought the Guildhall had lockers. Wouldn't it be possible for a Lilim to shatter her Heart discreetly?

Dalillama · 04-20-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

But how would he find out?

Doesn't someone have to report it to him? And I thought the Guildhall had lockers. Wouldn't it be possible for a Lilim to shatter her Heart discreetly?

Your Prince will know when your Heart shatters, and may tell Asmodeus, or may seek to find you with his own resources first, as too many Renegades from your service will tend to mean an investigation. If you never bound yourself to a Prince, you haven't got a Heart and can't break it. Free Lilim can be sent to Earth on Mother's duty, or that of anyone else they may owe Geasa to, traded by Lilith or sold for favors. Once you are on Earth, you can take off, but anyone you owe a Geas to can find you, and make you pay up.

JCD · 04-20-2009, 04:13 PM

Here is how I am running things.

If a Free contracts to a Prince, and he wants her on Earth (not as common as you'd think. Why when you have Sworn and your own to work with?) he has to give her a Heart. He doesn't have geases to look her up.

What happens with the Heart afterward? Well I can't see him giving it to the Lilim. Nor can I see Lilith or Asmodeous just allowing a Free go to Earth without a Heart, though for different reason. She wants to make sure they have a way off Earth without wasting them (or their geases). He so he can find them without trusting Lilith.

The tethers of the Guildhall have observers (guards gives such a confrontational impression), so too the Hearts. So anyone who breaks a Heart will have witnesses. Now, you MAY be able to buy them off...but you are trusting the word of a demon. Plus Lilith wants her cut. A BIG Delmonico Ribeye cut.

Just my 2 cents.

robkelk · 04-20-2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

Thanks William!

Now for my follow up questions to make sure I fully understand (yeah right, lol)

If Free Lilim don't have Hearts, how are they allowed to go to Earth? Or are they?

Any demon, with or without a Heart, can use a Tether to reach Earth or return to Hell.

Assuming the Tether's Seneschal allows passage, of course. Maybe the Seneschal owes that particular Lilim (or Lilith) a favor, or maybe the Lilim has a nifty artifact or some Essence she's willing to give up for passage, or maybe, just maybe, the Seneschal's in a good mood.

Alternately, a demon can follow another demon to Earth or Hell, appearing nearby wherever the followed demon appears. (A demon can follow an angel to Heaven, too, but it isn't advised. The Light of Heaven does nasty things to demons.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

I understand that Asmodeus would send people and dogs to find me and drag me back, but here is my confusion...

Would he know the moment my Heart shattered? I am thinking that there is a bit of a timeframe.

Asomedus is good, but he's not omniscient. There's enough of a lag to give your character a head start.

(Revelation is an angelic Word; Secrets is an Infernal Word. I take that to hint that Heaven is better at knowing things than Hell is... but that's just for my game.)

JCD · 04-20-2009, 05:19 PM

The question isn't one of being able to, as it is to be allowed. Now, since she's a Free, Lilith has a going rate for the use of her tethers. That isn't an issue. What is, is how long such a thing would remain secret.

This is bringing up a lot of good questions.

Are Hearts repositories of rites and resonances? Or are they just leashes whereby the Prince in question can "reach out and touch someone", stripping them?

Would Lilith allow a Free free access to Earth, provided they could pay, with or without a Heart? (The operative phrase isn't whether SHE would care, but would the others give her enough grief to MAKE her care?)

William · 04-20-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladyarcana55

If Free Lilim don't have Hearts, how are they allowed to go to Earth? Or are they?

They are. Asmodeus doesn't like it, but they can use a Tether or follow another demon to their Heart, just like any other demon, and Princes find Frees on Earth useful. What a Heartless Free lacks is the ability to ascend on her own, and if killed on Earth she will go to Limbo, a time-wasting and dangerous trip, unless she has a Body Bag with a spare Vessel available.

Quote:

Would he know the moment my Heart shattered? I am thinking that there is a bit of a timeframe.

Most Princes have no particular ability to know the moment your Heart shatters. The shattered Heart must be reported by observers, and even then might be evidence of soul-death rather than going Renegade. How diligent a Prince is about keeping an eye on his Servitor's Hearts varies; Servitors with a certain amount of privacy may have a considerable head start. On the other hand, Beleth is Attuned to all her Servitors' Hearts, and will know instantly when one is destroyed. (This, it is implied, would be a bit of a stretch for a non-Djinn Prince.)

A shattered Heart removes a demon's link to their Prince. Shattering the Heart inflicts a level of Discord, frees you from that Prince's Dissonance Condition, and strips you of any Band Attunements you may have for that Word other than your own Band (you can't have the Balseraph of Theft attunement unless you're either a Balseraph, or Theft, and if you're a Renegade Lilim you're neither).

Your Rites remain; retraction of this is a conscious effort on the part of your Prince. He may retract them, to deny you the useful Essence; or he may let you continue to use them, as when you do so you alert him to your position. (A Renegade of the Game, for example, had best take care not to accept the additional Sunset Essence.) Redeemed are even given access to their old demonic Rites as a temptation: using them inflicts Dissonance on the unwise new angel.

Rocket Man · 04-20-2009, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Attercap

Otherwise, there'd be a lot of Free Lilim in Limbo.

Ah, but consider the size of the Geas Lilith could collect in exchange for getting a Free out of there ...

JCD · 04-20-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Ah, but consider the size of the Geas Lilith could collect in exchange for getting a Free out of there ...

Yes. One level 6.

JCD · 04-20-2009, 07:47 PM

(Finally motivated enough to reference the books involved)

Looking at the Infernal Players Guide, it states on page 98 that a Prince will know as soon as the Renegade breaks his/her Heart.

A Renegade Demon is still a member of his Band. Hmm. It says that the Prince's Band, Servitor, and Distinctions attunements remain as well, Heart or not. Furthermore, it says that if a Prince is able to remove these, he'd just take the time to kill the Renegade, which seems to imply that the Prince has to be present to make these modifications. The Rites however CAN be removed by the Prince at any time. If the rites are used while Renegade, they leave a trail of breadcrumbs back to the Renegade involved.

Can't invoke the Prince without a Heart. Any Servant of Asmodeous is ordered to kill on sight. One cannot go Renegade on Lilith, as she can still find you by geas.

***
Still find I'm disagreeing about being allowed topside without a Heart, even for Lilith. Most importantly, it is far cheaper to have a Heart around as a safety net. Getting a demon back from Limbo would take rivers of Essence.

Next, it seems to be intrinsic to the invocation of the Prince.

Obviously finding the demon involved is important.

This isn't a mechanical question. Nor am I denying it does happen. Just not particularly often.

Don't you wish you had listened to me in the first place, Lady?

04-20-2009, 03:14 PM	#11
Attercap Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Portland, OR	Re: Lilith and her favors I don't have my books on hand, but I'm almost positive that the Hearts of Free Lilim are kept in the Guildhall. Otherwise, there'd be a lot of Free Lilim in Limbo. Heart shattering (regardless if you're a Free Lilim or a Shedite of Death), is a tricky affair, as it should be kept secret for as long as possible. The moment someone notices that the demonic Heart has been shattered it's probably going to be reported and the moment it's reported... well, Asmodeus isn't going to be too happy. However, Asmodeus doesn't always find out. I ran a session where the demonic PCs were hoping to track down a renegade before anyone else discovered the shattered Heart. __________________ Attercap.Net - A ttrpg blog covering In Nomine, Call of Cthulhu, and more

04-20-2009, 03:17 PM	#12
ladyarcana55 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Bellflower, CA	Re: Lilith and her favors But how would he find out? Doesn't someone have to report it to him? And I thought the Guildhall had lockers. Wouldn't it be possible for a Lilim to shatter her Heart discreetly?

04-20-2009, 04:13 PM	#14
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: Lilith and her favors Here is how I am running things. If a Free contracts to a Prince, and he wants her on Earth (not as common as you'd think. Why when you have Sworn and your own to work with?) he has to give her a Heart. He doesn't have geases to look her up. What happens with the Heart afterward? Well I can't see him giving it to the Lilim. Nor can I see Lilith or Asmodeous just allowing a Free go to Earth without a Heart, though for different reason. She wants to make sure they have a way off Earth without wasting them (or their geases). He so he can find them without trusting Lilith. The tethers of the Guildhall have observers (guards gives such a confrontational impression), so too the Hearts. So anyone who breaks a Heart will have witnesses. Now, you MAY be able to buy them off...but you are trusting the word of a demon. Plus Lilith wants her cut. A BIG Delmonico Ribeye cut. Just my 2 cents.

04-20-2009, 05:19 PM	#16
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: Lilith and her favors The question isn't one of being able to, as it is to be allowed. Now, since she's a Free, Lilith has a going rate for the use of her tethers. That isn't an issue. What is, is how long such a thing would remain secret. This is bringing up a lot of good questions. Are Hearts repositories of rites and resonances? Or are they just leashes whereby the Prince in question can "reach out and touch someone", stripping them? Would Lilith allow a Free free access to Earth, provided they could pay, with or without a Heart? (The operative phrase isn't whether SHE would care, but would the others give her enough grief to MAKE her care?)

04-20-2009, 07:47 PM	#20
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: Lilith and her favors (Finally motivated enough to reference the books involved) Looking at the Infernal Players Guide, it states on page 98 that a Prince will know as soon as the Renegade breaks his/her Heart. A Renegade Demon is still a member of his Band. Hmm. It says that the Prince's Band, Servitor, and Distinctions attunements remain as well, Heart or not. Furthermore, it says that if a Prince is able to remove these, he'd just take the time to kill the Renegade, which seems to imply that the Prince has to be present to make these modifications. The Rites however CAN be removed by the Prince at any time. If the rites are used while Renegade, they leave a trail of breadcrumbs back to the Renegade involved. Can't invoke the Prince without a Heart. Any Servant of Asmodeous is ordered to kill on sight. One cannot go Renegade on Lilith, as she can still find you by geas. *** Still find I'm disagreeing about being allowed topside without a Heart, even for Lilith. Most importantly, it is far cheaper to have a Heart around as a safety net. Getting a demon back from Limbo would take rivers of Essence. Next, it seems to be intrinsic to the invocation of the Prince. Obviously finding the demon involved is important. This isn't a mechanical question. Nor am I denying it does happen. Just not particularly often. Don't you wish you had listened to me in the first place, Lady?