Specific Geas Question

[JCD]

In a game I'm running, a Lilim refrained from killing a human being after seeing 'survival' as a Need (level 6)

How much can the player ask for? Yes, I've read Lilith (and even bought it, if our Archangel is listening).

Can she demand a couple of days of blind obedience AND an unending negative geas of not ratting out the player?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by JCD

Can she demand a couple of days of blind obedience AND an unending negative geas of not ratting out the player?

I don't think so. No Geas is "unending" - even a Geas/6 caps out at a year. So the best she can ask for is silence for a year. And when you throw in the couple days of blind obedience, that's going to be even higher.
Using the table on p.38 of the Lilith book, "A couple days of blind obedience" sounds like a Geas 5 all by itself to me - it's more than a day, which is level 2, and it sounds like it "risks dissonance" or is "definitely contrary to character", which is level 4. Added together and subtracting one, that's level 5. The remaining level could be used to keep someone silent for an hour after the service ended, but only if keeping silent counted as "normal work" - i.e, nothing happened during the service that the person would want to report on under normal circumstances. If it's anything more severe than that, then I simply wouldn't allow any period of silence. The Lilim might as well demand a week of blind obedience, and get the full Geas/6 value.

[Acolyte]

I don't think the Lilim should have gotten a geas on the person to begin with. "Survival" isn't so much a Need as what you lose if you don't get a Need (like food, water, etc). Otherwise Lilim could continuously get this type of Geas over and over and over and over again from every human they have the potential to kill and don't.

Generally speaking, a Lilim has to act to get a Geas. The only way I'd let a Lilim get a hook for not acting is if the Lilim is going out on a limb, risking herself or her reputation with someone somehow, by not doing something she "should" do. Of course, telling an agent of The Game the location of a Renegade is clearly something a Lilim "should" do...

Here's another thing--a Lilim can't go around offering bottles of water to everyone for essentially free low-level Geases. Technically, all humans need water to live, but it's only a Need if the human is actively very thirsty, and for most people in a developed country obtaining decent water is free/trivial, so the level of the Geas is almost too minor to consider--a Lilim with a 6-pack of Gatorade can't hang around outside of gyms for free level 1 Geases. Now, if a Lilim came upon a kidnap victim tied to a chair in the cellar who did desperately Need water, a higher-level Geas could be obtained in this fashion--though odds are the Need for a bath, freedom, protection from a scary kidnapper, etc, are more critical and obvious.

So just because the Lilim was in the room for a second with the human, alone, doesn't necessitate a Geas, unless there was something else going on--the Lilim's boss ordered her to kill the human, or the human was clearly a foe of the Lilim (a Soldier of God, or of Hell under an opposed Prince, etc).

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

I don't think the Lilim should have gotten a geas on the person to begin with. "Survival" isn't so much a Need as what you lose if you don't get a Need (like food, water, etc). Otherwise Lilim could continuously get this type of Geas over and over and over and over again from every human they have the potential to kill and don't.

It sounded to me from the OP's description that the human was in mortal danger, and knew it, and the Lilim met the Need by letting them live. Which strikes me as valid. Obviously, yes, the fact that a Lilim could kill pretty much everyone she walks past doesn't let her claim umpteen-million Geas/6s walking down the street - someone has to be aware of a Need, at least subconsciously, for a Geas to apply.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

Generally speaking, a Lilim has to act to get a Geas. The only way I'd let a Lilim get a hook for not acting is if the Lilim is going out on a limb, risking herself or her reputation with someone somehow, by not doing something she "should" do.

I don't know. I think that taking action to set up a Need, and then fulfilling it, is acting enough. I do think that the Lilim does actually have to do something, it's true - it's not enough to take credit for something someone else did that the Lilim had nothing to do with. But if the Lilim is doing something, sees that someone has a Need for her to stop doing it, and stops, then that's a valid hook.

An example to illustrate my point. Someone is being menaced with a knife to their throat, and the Lilim arrives on the scene and reads a Need/6 "Live" in the victim's eyes.
If the Lilim can prevent the victim being killed (either she's the one holding the knife, or she has a hold on the knife holder, she gets the Geas-hook. She took action to meet the Need, even if that action was "stop holding a knife to your throat".
If, on the other hand, whoever is menacing the victim releases them, but not in a way the Lilim influences (someone charges in and tears the Lilim away from the victim, the Lilim happens to be standing there while a police sniper takes out the attacker, etc.), the Lilim doesn't get the hook, even if she can convince the victim she was responsible. The Symphony keeps her honest, to a degree.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

Here's another thing--a Lilim can't go around offering bottles of water to everyone for essentially free low-level Geases. a Lilim with a 6-pack of Gatorade can't hang around outside of gyms for free level 1 Geases.

I agree about the water point, but I think I disagree about the Gatorade. That sounds like a great way for a clever Lilim (of Gluttony, possibly), to score some free Geas/1s. Obviously, not everyone coming out of the gym will have a Need for refreshment. But enough will that she'll score some hooks.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

So just because the Lilim was in the room for a second with the human, alone, doesn't necessitate a Geas, unless there was something else going on--the Lilim's boss ordered her to kill the human, or the human was clearly a foe of the Lilim (a Soldier of God, or of Hell under an opposed Prince, etc).

Again, got to disagree. I think it nerfs Lilim too harshly to forbid them from setting up Need-generating situations. If a Lilim finds a human they want, and puts a knife to their throat, it's perfectly reasonable to read a Need there for "survival", and meet it by taking the knife away. What prevents this from happening all the time is the game-world consequences. Mortal authorities are going to want words with anyone who tries this, and it probably tips off all kinds of angelic warning signs too. Plus, of course, that the Need won't always be for "survival". Odds are good that it will be a Need/5 or 6, sure, but it could be things like "tell my family I love them", or "Take this bitch with me" that the Lilim can't easily grant simply by taking away the knife.

[JCD]

Allow me to expand on the situation. The human was a Servant of the Lilim who was enslaved by an enemy of the Lilim. Kat, the human, was directly responsible for setting up and attacking the Lilim from behind.

So, I ruled the human EARNED her death, even if not in her right mind. The player certainly thought so.

The Lilim's response to the situation:

5) I will agree not to kill you or hurt you, nor will I allow any hard to come to you, that I know of. (She was with another demon who would have been glad to kill her on simple principle, thus the 'keep safe from harm')

I hope that clarifies things.

Yes, the player had 5 aspects to her geas. I'm...consolidating

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Plus, of course, that the Need won't always be for "survival". Odds are good that it will be a Need/5 or 6, sure, but it could be things like "tell my family I love them", or "Take this bitch with me" that the Lilim can't easily grant simply by taking away the knife.

Oh, yes. And don't forget that in times like these, someone who's in really bad shape may have a Need of "Get killed, so my family can collect the life insurance." The Lilim can certainly fulfill that one ... but good luck collecting on it, especially if the soul winds up in the Higher Heavens.

EDIT: Yes, I know, this is more likely a lower-level "Make sure my family is taken care of," but if the soul has already been thinking morbid thoughts and is convinced that's the only way he's ever going to bring any money in for them ...

[Acolyte]

A thing of Gatorade is ~$1-$2 in the US (more if you are at a sporting event, movie theater, amusement part, airport, or other places with captive consumers that can charge ridiculous prices for consumables), and obtaining one is as easy as walking or driving to the nearest gas station. I would have to re-read the Geases section of the core/IPG (I don't have Lilith) to check up on the value of a Level 1 Geas, but I can't imagine one demon owing another two bucks and five minutes of harmless time to be worth a Discord visible as chains wrapped around his celestial form (though the image of a Calabite in celestial form wrapped in chains with the lightning bolt logo of Gatorade on them is rather amusing). Possibly I am wrong, though.

In the writing of that paragraph, though, I do feel a Lilim of Gluttony could pick up Geases at an amusement park or stadium selling food on the cheap (assuming she could find a way to smuggle the food in, possibly with a level 2 or 3 Geas on a park worker). With application of Consume, her charm, and your average park-goer's hunger for junk food/disgust and shock at the high prices charged at concessions stands, she could probably sell a lot of burgers at undercutting prices, collecting several Geas/1s on a single individual and combining them for a greater favor ("Since my burger costs less than half of that guy's, you can eat two and STILL save money!"). She could probably still turn a profit on the deal in normal cash.

Of course Lilim can set up situations where they can take care of obvious Needs. If a Lilim kidnaps someone, she can theoretically collect 6 levels of Geases from merely keeping the human watered and fed over a few weeks. Of course, the human is liable to tell the cops once freed, but this can be gotten around several ways (Songs of Form when dealing with the kidnapee, changing Vessels, releasing him after imposing a Geas/6 which is liable to get him killed, etc).

But it's not as if a Lilim can sit across from someone at the dinner table and let that person eat and entire meal and then announce "well, I didn't take your food so you owe me a Geas." To get a Geas of that nature, she would have to take the food away and give it back--and if the person wasn't really hungry to begin with, even that might not work.

Interesting thought about the "Need to die" thing, though. An interesting adventure/session for a demonic party could be being Geased by a Lilim to locate a soul in Hell who owes her, big.

In the situation described more fully, though, I do agree a Geas is relevant--most demons would kill servants who betray them, and especially with backup I'm sure it was in the Lilim's power, but she opted to let the human go. FOR NOW! *bumbumbum*

[JCD]

I can easily see a Lilim being able to get a geas/1 for a cigarette or a cup of coffee at the appropriate moment, and both cost far less then a dollar.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Acolyte

A thing of Gatorade is ~$1-$2 in the US and obtaining one is as easy as walking or driving to the nearest gas station.

True, it's pretty easy to get a Gatorade. However, if that gas station is, say, in the wrong direction for the person wanting refreshment, or they're so exhausted that it's going to stretch out the walk, then that Gatorade starts looking like a bigger favor. "1 hour" is the standard for a Geas/1, but I generally round up when I'm considering time limits - if getting that Gatorade would take someone a half-hour, I figure it's good for a Geas/1.
Another thing I've fiddled with, Geas-wise, is that Geas levels aren't strictly additive when it comes to converting to higher level Geases - that is, six Geas/1s don't add up to a Geas/6 (I let six Geases of a given level equal one of the next level). If you're using that system, you might let Lilim claim "Geas/0s" on people - favors so small that they don't merit a return individually, but enough of them add up to something worth returning.

Originally Posted by Acolyte

But it's not as if a Lilim can sit across from someone at the dinner table and let that person eat and entire meal and then announce "well, I didn't take your food so you owe me a Geas."

I agree with this, definitely. The person being Geased has to have some sense that the Lilim is giving them something. The Lilim would have to make it clear to the person that they're eating only on the Lilim's sufferance.
Which leads to the rather creepy image of a Lilim (probably of Lust) who's got a Servant or two conditioned to treat everything as "Only with the Mistress' permission." The Lilim could just rack up the Geases just by sitting there and allowing the Servant to go about their life...

[JCD]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I agree with this, definitely. The person being Geased has to have some sense that the Lilim is giving them something. The Lilim would have to make it clear to the person that they're eating only on the Lilim's sufferance.
Which leads to the rather creepy image of a Lilim (probably of Lust) who's got a Servant or two conditioned to treat everything as "Only with the Mistress' permission." The Lilim could just rack up the Geases just by sitting there and allowing the Servant to go about their life...

Yes, and she will not be on speaking terms with any other Sister who isn't bound...at best. But I'm sure the Asmodeous, Samingan and Haagenti sisters need someone to talk to.