Why be a Free Lilim?

[Blackwing]

Originally Posted by timespike

I've always had trouble envisioning either Lilith or Lilim as being any fun. I've always pictured them as self-centered, bitchy, unreasonable, psycho gold-digger types.

Some of them may be that inside but not even demons (or possibly especially demons) want to hang out with people like that. Lilim will quickly learn to disguise it or be left without Geases.

[alexondria]

Originally Posted by timespike

I've always had trouble envisioning either Lilith or Lilim as being any fun. I've always pictured them as self-centered, bitchy, unreasonable, psycho gold-digger types.

I've always pictured quite the oppisite. I've always seen them as the classic example of the Devil. Fun, charming, everything you've always wanted, and they'll give it to you for a price.

[Alejandro]

Originally Posted by In Nomine page 16

The downside of occasionally having the undivided attention of a Demon Prince is that you occasionally have the undivided attention of a Demon Prince.

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Safe space in the Guildhall would, of course, cost rent.

Any idea how much a condo in Shal-Mari would cost? 5cp? 10cp? (X/Y)/2?

And theoretically, what would happen if a Free Lilim somehow became a Totally Free Lilim?

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[alangriffith]

Originally Posted by Alejandro

Any idea how much a condo in Shal-Mari would cost? 5cp? 10cp? (X/Y)/2?

Well since Essence is the currency of Shal-Mari, personally I'd start each adventure with the condo-owning Pc on 1 or 2 essence less than full (assuming you start them at full at the beginning of adventures. If you start them at less, start the one paying rent at even less). The books which mention Shal-Mari all speak of it in terms of rent rather than buying, as it is the profit-making property of several Demon-Princes (who have a long time to make good their investment, and no inclination to let others be able to rent out or control their turf).

And theoretically, what would happen if a Free Lilim somehow became a Totally Free Lilim?

Lilith would not be able to locate said Lilim via geas (and thus I would guess, at all).

If you take Archangel Beth's view (I believe it is a view rather than an official rule) that lilith's dissonance conditions are in the geasa on a free lilim (as they are in the heart for bound demons), then I guess the lilim would lose said dissonance conditions (but is likely to obey them out of habit). Lilith may then remove her rites, or they may be lost with the Geas also.

These two things (of which I think only the first is entirely canon) are in my mind the only reasons Lilith keeps an hour geas on all her children, as otherwise a geas that is never called in is as good as a geas which doesn't exist (hence the fact that when I play a lilim, I consider myself completely free as soon as I am down to that last 'mothers token'. Its fun to play such an attitude)

There's also the psychological effect upon Lilith, which is difficult to calaculate what with Lilith being a complicated woman and wordbound to Freedom. Does she feel her little girl is all grown up? Does she feel it a personal failure? Does she smile on the outside and grate within?

Of course, the pyschological reaction of Lilith ashould really be considered earlier than this. A Lilith who cannot stand the very idea of a daughter becoming totally Free will never call in or trade the Geas under any circumstances, whereas a Lilith who see it as a difficult but passable test may do so (if, for example, the 'free' lilim with a single hour-geas has a geas on an archangel or vital Mcguffin-key NPC, and is prepared to swap it for total freedom).
If Lilith will not do this, the totally free can only come about through geas-stripping or some trick (I would guess that some Brights who Fall would be totally free, their geasa either stripped or called in by Hell in previous attempts to make them fall. I'd imagine such rebound Brights are swifty terminated by Asmodeus or re-geased by Lilith in return for protection from Asmodeus, though.)

And finally there is status. A Lilim known to be 'free' is now no longer walking around Hell with *any* glowing chains or similar geasa marks. Assuming this becomes known (rather than the totally free hiding from sight or pretending to be bound), the totally free is likely to generate a sort of cult of personality among free lilim, and/or perhaps a mass of envy and jealousy. I suspect Asmodeus will try and find something to convict such a Lilim of, a task made easier if Lilith is helping, and harder if not (see psychological reaction of Lilith, above).

[William]

Originally Posted by Alejandro

Any idea how much a condo in Shal-Mari would cost? 5cp? 10cp? (X/Y)/2?

I would cost out a basic rental of free space to be something that the damned could not afford and demons could only afford if they were spending their time working productively for Hell -- thus, at a minimum, 1 Essence per day. If you're doing your job for Hell, then you can get a Rite or a reliquary, or get owed a favor by an Impudite for long-term work, or can bully the Essence out of Ethereals, or something, and have it couriered with reasonable reliability to your landlord. Thus, I would cost "owns a secure studio apartment in the Guildhall" at the cost of a relic/1 (accessible to the renting agency) or an assumed long-term "background" Geas held on a low-status demon or a damned soul or two, at 3cp. In GURPS, owning this apartment would be part of the background of starting Wealth beyond Average. (I would make the Earthside wealth of the Lilim's Role their "80% settled" investment the advantages of non-Earthside privacy and storage space are considerable.)

If you trust a Sister, you might be able to split the cost, but there's that whole "trust a Sister" problem.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by Alejandro

Any idea how much a condo in Shal-Mari would cost? 5cp? 10cp? (X/Y)/2?

I would charge it in Essence, m'self -- 1 Essence per week would be a reasonable one or two room apartment, off the top of my head. Perhaps 1 Essence per major room, per week? (I.e., if you have a teeny "bathroom" with a shower for getting the gunk off and a toilet for yarping up really bad celestial beer, it doesn't count toward the rent. If you have a huge "bathroom" with a hot tub and four showers, it counts.)

And theoretically, what would happen if a Free Lilim somehow became a Totally Free Lilim?

In my campaign? She'd probably be effectively disowned -- Lilith'd have no reason to keep her alive, and every reason to consider her a potential threat.