Why ask for returns on favors?

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by JCD

I'd like to see the text, myself.

"Bright Lilim can detect needs through recordings, if they can see the subject's eyes." GIN70

"... there is no particular time limit, save that the subject must still have the Need." GIN69

So that seems fairly cut and dried to me. The need is "trapped in time" in the photo and the Lilim must hope that the need is relevant at the moment the favor is granted.

Pay the essence for the song and see if you've got the hook? (Or can Lilim tell how many hooks they've got just by thinking about it?)

Ping!

"Wait guys, his daughter just told him I healed her. That means they're in contact at this instant. Let's get them."

[JCD]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Pay the essence for the song and see if you've got the hook? (Or can Lilim tell how many hooks they've got just by thinking about it?)

Ping!

"Wait guys, his daughter just told him I healed her. That means they're in contact at this instant. Let's get them."

First, thanks for the References. I had GIN a long time ago and have not picked up another copy. Needs are ephemeral things. The $50,000 grand one owed in the picture had probably been replaced by some cigarettes for one's husband in Club Fed.

I have to say you've jumped one or two too many stages for me to follow the above concept. I would think ANY Lilim knows exactly how many hooks SHE has. I can't see any way for her to know anyone else's hooks on someone.

And I'm not sure how she would discern with her hooks how exactly the above happened. Walk me through it slower if you please.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by JCD

And I'm not sure how she would discern with her hooks how exactly the above happened. Walk me through it slower if you please.

Well it goes like this:

A: The hook only exists from the moment that the mark knows his debt.

B: The Lilim always knows how many hooks she has and on whom and what level.

QED: The Lilim can leave "hook traps" that let her know the instant the targets know what she's done for them. She doesn't even have to be on the same plain of existence at the time.

[JCD]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Well it goes like this:

A: The hook only exists from the moment that the mark knows his debt.

B: The Lilim always knows how many hooks she has and on whom and what level.

QED: The Lilim can leave "hook traps" that let her know the instant the targets know what she's done for them. She doesn't even have to be on the same plain of existence at the time.

Let's see how that would work.

Bob is back in that bar and Kaylen is looking in his eyes. He needs his daughter healed. One thing which is intrinsic in my understanding of the whole geas business is "The Offer." Bob needs to know that someone is offering something for this scenario to exist at all. "I will heal your daughter for a favor." Because absent that, Lily telling daddy that 'the lady healed me' will merit nothing but a shrug.

So, because of the offer informing Bob of a potential debt, the hook would plant when the deed is done, not when he becomes aware of it. He's already in the know.

But, even if I bought all your interpretations, it seems more of a parlor trick then something which would get a lot of mileage.

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by JCD

I'd like to see the text, myself.

First... the original core rules! p. 58 of the PDF (p. 57 as the page numbers go), below the Celestial Resonance Check Digit Modifers table: "Using a divine resonance on a mechanical reproduction (such as looking at a photo or talking to someone on the phone) will give information about the subject's state when the reproduction was made."

Next to hand is GURPS IN.

p. GIN32, Resonance advantage: "Resonances based on Symphonic Knowledge can be used on a recorded reproduction like a photograph, audio recording, or video tape. Modifiers for range and use for media apply -- see the Resonance Modifiers Table sidebar on p. 140."

p. GIN33, Symphonic Knowledge advantage, says, "or accessible through live or recorded media (see Resonance, p. 32)."

p. GIN70, Lilim Band Summary box: "Symphonic Knowledge: Needs (Does not work on recordings, -33%"
p. GIN70, Redemption for Lilim box: "With their angelic connection to the Symphony, Bright Liim can detect needs through recordings, if they can see the subject's eyes."

p. 140, Resonance Modifiers Table: "Using a divine, Perception-based resonance upon recorded media, such as a photo, will give information appropriate to when the recording was made. For example, an Elohite could sense the subject's emotional state at the time of the photo, but not his current emotions. (Dark Lilim are too selfish to open themselves to the Symphony enough to use recorded media; Bright Lilim can use their resonance upon a photograph if the target is looking into the camera, simulating 'eye contact.')"

I could go groveling through the APG to see if I find anything else, but I
would hope those two are enough?

[Archangel Beth]

Originally Posted by JCD

I am a little uncomfortable with this read. A Lilim should have to do something more then pass along a message from Asmodeous. It doesn't read that way in the rules however and they specifically state that it's the target's Need, not the difficulty of the Lilim to accomplish.

Yup. A Lilim with the Song of Corporeal Healing can save lives easily, and collect big Geases.

Here's the text of the fic, anyway... (which I don't insist on being canon, though I did try to write it with my understanding of canon informing it.)

Behind the Prince, she knelt, curling her head down till her horns nearly brushed the ground. "My Master," she murmured.

He flicked his fingers. "Discover what they want most," he said in the demonic language.

She stood and moved in front of Maasiai, raising her lioness head gently with both hands beneath her jaw. The Cherub snarled at her, eyes slitted. Betharan pushed at the Symphony, spending Essence to find what she wanted. Then she reached out and tilted Jad'an's chin up. He met her gaze evenly, with neither blame nor fear in his dark amber eyes. She pushed there, too, looking for the desires that an Elohite could never act upon, but would want just the same.

Survival, unFallen.

She turned and knelt again, in front of them, spreading her hands against the ground. She spoke angelically, and carefully. "My Master, I beg that you release them. They are likely not worth the effort to break them, and to take them now would jeopardize further interactions with their breed. Let them live, and report to their Lord that the Game knows mercy." And keeps it locked away, save when advantageous, she added to herself.

Her Master's hand brushed against her hair, tugging her head up. His thumb stroked against one of her needle-sharp horns, and a thin line of blood traced down her forehead. "You speak for them?" he asked, using the old angelic language again.

Her eyes closed, she shuddered. His blood tickled her cheek. "Yes, my Master. I beg you for their release."

"What is it worth to you?" he murmured.

She held her hands up, forming a six-month Geas within them like a glimmering star.

"Indeed. You value their lives highly." His hand traced down the side of her face, streaking the blood, and then he took the gem from her hands. The Geas-band coalesced around her throat. "Done. They may go free, thanks to your sacrifice."

She stayed, kneeling with her eyes closed, until something touched her shoulder. "He is gone."

She turned and looked into Jad'an's wide eyes. "You owe me, Judgment," she told him, opening her hand for a moment, to show the soap-bubble token of her hook within his soul.

"Perhaps," he said. Not enough of an acknowledgment to let her finalize it as a band such as she wore. "I would take care invoking that, were I the holder. My strength of will is up to the task of resisting a Geas that would threaten my purpose."

She quirked a half-smile. "I'm sure." She stood up. "I have bought your freedom, angels. Go, before some bored Duke shows up."