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Old 02-13-2021, 03:10 PM   #11
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

I have a 'gameist' interpretation of the IQ prerequisites: valuable, useful things are higher and less valuable, less useful things lower. I don't think it is really much deeper than that.
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Old 02-13-2021, 08:05 PM   #12
hcobb
 
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

"Intelligence (IQ) determines: (1) how much life experience and training the person has"

So you need a higher IQ to have more training. Q.E.D.
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Old 02-13-2021, 10:02 PM   #13
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
"Intelligence (IQ) determines: (1) how much life experience and training the person has"

So you need a higher IQ to have more training. Q.E.D.
Which is why I still like the idea of an IQ-based cap on the quantity of talents/spells known.
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Old 02-14-2021, 07:42 AM   #14
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
"Intelligence (IQ) determines: (1) how much life experience and training the person has"

So you need a higher IQ to have more training. Q.E.D.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. If you're trying to prove that the rule is as stated then that seems trivial. If you're trying to to prove the rule is desirable then this isn't the way to go about it. Maybe you had something else in mind.

I like the ability to make a distinction between a character who is smart enough to learn the most difficult spells, and a character who has picked up a lot of handy skills. In Classic TFT these are both just "high IQ". Legacy tried to fix it and I approve though I don't like how.

But I'd probably also like to make a distinction between someone who can be a dead shot with a crossbow vs someone who's great at dodging falling rocks vs someone who's potentially good at picking locks, and in TFT those are all just "high DX". It's a fact of life that if the system's simple it's going to have blind spots.
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Old 02-14-2021, 07:43 AM   #15
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

Anyone trying to solve this should think about how the solution would interact with talents like Missile Weapons and Alertness, which effectively improve, respectively, a missile DX subattribute of DX and a perception IQ subattribute of IQ.

The way it works in most TFT PBEM games is that anyone can buy +3 to a subattribute instead of 1 normal attribute. The subattribute is more or less anything the attribute can do which isn't the attribute's main job. So extra talents becomes a special case of a broader system. This system isn't perfect but it works pretty well in my experience.

A suggested list of subattributes (much larger than in those games, you might not want all of them) might be:
  • ST subattributes:
    • Feats of strength (bend bars, lift heavy things, etc.)
    • Endurance (resist poison, hit points?, etc.)
    • Not weapon damage, which is notionally the main job of ST.
  • DX subattributes:
    • Missile Weapons (replaces the talent)
    • Lightfoot (dodge traps, etc.)
    • Nimble-fingered (thief stuff)
    • Not melee weapon to hit rolls, which is notionally the main job of DX.
  • IQ subattributes:
    • Perception (replaces Alertness)
    • Memory (for number of talents and spells, can be taken multiple times)
    • Willpower (resist rolls, etc.)
    • Not IQ requirements for talents and spells, which is notionally the main job of ST.
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Old 02-14-2021, 09:36 AM   #16
hcobb
 
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
But I'd probably also like to make a distinction between someone who can be a dead shot with a crossbow vs someone who's great at dodging falling rocks vs someone who's potentially good at picking locks, and in TFT those are all just "high DX". It's a fact of life that if the system's simple it's going to have blind spots.
Missile Weapons III, Acrobatics, and the Lock/Knock spell.
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Old 02-15-2021, 09:15 PM   #17
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Early character progression in Legacy is to add DX to be able to apply your advanced talents more reliably.

You won't adjust ST much because it messes up the warrior's weapon talent selection or caps the future potential of a wizard.

You won't add IQ because it doesn't gain you much.

And you can't afford anything else.

32 attributes plus 5 more DX then 3 more IQ and then you've hit the wall.

Starting Fencer is ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11 this evolves into ST 9 (possibly 10), DX 17 (risk only 16?), IQ 14 then add all of the talents in the book.

Crossbow sniper goes ST 12, DX 11, IQ 9 to ST 12, DX 16, IQ 12

And so on.
Man, that sounds like a dreadful game. The only difference between characters is at the start and then the attribute progression follows a set path. I guess after that, you can choose different talents.

Or maybe not. Maybe you also have a list of which talents to add and in what order?
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Old 02-23-2021, 10:07 AM   #18
Kieddicus
 
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

I dislike that IQ in LE is different if you start with it as opposed to gaining it later in the campaign. My opinion is you should be able to look at a character sheet and know exactly how much XP that character has gained, but how LE is written two identical characters could have vastly different amounts of XP.*

So I let people gain talents/spells when they increase their IQ, and treat buying talents/spells with XP as an added bonus when increasing stats becomes to expensive.
Alternatively you could completely separate IQ and getting talents/spells by making everyone just start with 10 points towards talents/spells regardless of IQ.

*I also don't let players buy money or wishes with XP.
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Old 02-25-2021, 08:34 PM   #19
Rolando
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

I think problem, if any, is the start not the progression.

What happen if for character creation IQ is just the limit and traits and spells are purchased with a fixed number, say 10 (average IQ).

So all characters buy traits and spells as if they have starting IQ 10, but can only purchase traits/spells that they can learn based in charcter actual IQ.

That will reduce the IQ bloat at the start as having greater IQ will only serve to get higher level traits/spells, no free XP.

What you believe will the be problems with this idea?

I'm still starting to play TFT and play rarely due to local covid limitation on mobility, but I see the starting IQ bloat as overall bad, even if it is not a problem with my group, as it is a matter of time before my players understand the system better and a random munchkin appear.
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Old 02-26-2021, 02:47 AM   #20
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: IQ gain and free talents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolando View Post
all characters buy traits and spells as if they have starting IQ 10, but can only purchase traits/spells that they can learn based in character actual IQ.
For a fighter character with IQ 8, to get 10 or even 8 points of talents is quite a lot. Say you have Knife, Sword and Shield, maybe you have 5 points left and all you can buy from is IQ 7 and 8, you can probably get all or most of the talents that interest you. I've used a fighter as an example but I think most characters are like this, heroes more than wizards.

For a fighter character with IQ 13, to get 10 or even 13 points of talents isn't a lot. You might want Knife, Sword, Shield, Shield Expertise, Sword Expertise, Sword Mastery, that's 11 points, i.e. -1 left. And you're standing in a cave of wonders full of all sorts of cool and powerful talents you'd love to have: Strategist and Tactics, Physicker, Scholar... I could go on a long time.

The net effect: even with Classic rules high IQ characters tend to feel the talent point pinch far more than low IQ characters. Legacy made that more true, because the advanced combat talents chew up talent points like a frustrated rottweiler on angel dust. What you're suggesting will make the problem more severe.

Last edited by David Bofinger; 02-26-2021 at 02:49 AM. Reason: metaphor
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