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Old 07-11-2021, 11:26 AM   #11
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: modifying Hero System combat

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
And as I say, I've run combat on that basis in the Buffy the Vampire Slayer rpg, and I think it really does provide that focusing effect.
My experience is that the possibility of meaningful defensive choices (e.g. aborts in Hero, reactions in d20, invoking aspects in Fate, etc) is what matters, not who rolls the dice.
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Old 07-11-2021, 12:09 PM   #12
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: modifying Hero System combat

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My experience is that the possibility of meaningful defensive choices (e.g. aborts in Hero, reactions in d20, invoking aspects in Fate, etc) is what matters, not who rolls the dice.
Have you played a game that uses the other approach?
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Old 07-11-2021, 02:27 PM   #13
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: modifying Hero System combat

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Have you played a game that uses the other approach?
Yes. My experience is that Attacker Rolls, Defender Rolls, Both Roll, and Player Roll makes absolutely no difference in how engaging it is (what matters is meaningful defensive choices), but Attacker Rolls is usually fastest, probably because the die rolling isn't an interrupt, and Player Rolls (a) frequently has screwed up math, and (b) can't handle any situations that aren't player vs NPC.
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Old 07-12-2021, 08:06 AM   #14
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: modifying Hero System combat

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I think it might be better to change things so that the protagonist succeeds in either attacking or defending by rolling low. But in that case, keeping 11 as the target number would mean that a protagonist's chances of hitting were significantly higher than an antagonist's. And while a game could work that way, I don't think Champions ever has.

The 11 or less for equally matched opponents means that the attack hits 135 times out of 216, or 62.5% of the time. This is equivalent to saying that the attack misses 37.5% of the time, or 81 times out of 216. And that equates to a roll of 9 or less. So the odds will be unchanged if a defender successfully defends against an equally skilled attacker on a 9 or less. That basic roll will by modified up by things that favor the defender (starting with DCV) and down by thing that favor the attacker (starting with OCV).
I'm not familiar with the system, but from what you describe, it seems like you could state "It's harder to successfully defend than it is to successfully attack, thus defensive actions have an inherent penalty of -2," rather than "11 or less succeeds on an attack, 9 or less succeeds on a defense." It's the exact same effect, but seems easier to remember (and integrate for long-time players).

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Yes. My experience is that Attacker Rolls, Defender Rolls, Both Roll, and Player Roll makes absolutely no difference in how engaging it is (what matters is meaningful defensive choices), but Attacker Rolls is usually fastest, probably because the die rolling isn't an interrupt, and Player Rolls (a) frequently has screwed up math, and (b) can't handle any situations that aren't player vs NPC.
I think this ultimately comes down to player choice. Often, people like rolling dice - outside of cheating, it doesn't make a difference who rolls the dice, but many players will feel more involved (and feel like they have more agency) if they get to roll. For some players, that doesn't matter - the dice are just random number generators, and it doesn't matter if you roll, the GM rolls, a robot rolls, or you grab the number from the next line on a pregenerated list.

For NPC vs NPC, if one of the NPC's is an ally of the PC's, you could have the player of whoever they are "closest" to make the roll (if Hawkeye and Winter Soldier are NPC's, Black Widow's player makes the rolls for Hawkeye, Captain America's player make the rolls for Winter Soldier). If it's two villains squaring off, the GM would make the roll, and probably would just roll for the attacker (seeing as that was the default)... but then, when two villains are fighting, sometimes it's more appropriate for the GM to just fiat who wins.

For PC vs PC (Iron Man vs Captain America), that's a bit hairier. I'd probably just go with the attacker doing all the rolls. You could instead have both players roll, and whoever beats their target number by more wins (ties go to the defender). That's going to screw with probabilities a bit, making it harder for heroes to hurt each other (the attacker has to succeed, and the defender has to either fail or succeed by less than the defender, which will skew hit probability downward), but that might not be inappropriate.
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