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Old 10-14-2014, 02:38 AM   #1
Erling
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Aim modifiers and limitations

General limitations for ranged attack bonuses are:

"Your combined bonus from all targeting systems (scopes, sights, computers, etc.) cannot exceed the weapon’s base Accuracy. For instance, if you add a telescopic sight that gives +4 Acc to a pistol with Acc 2, the bonus is +2, not +4."(B364)

"The sum of Acc and all extra aimed-fire bonuses can never exceed twice the base Acc of the attack" (B372, emphasis mine)

1. What is base Acc? I suppose that it's the Acc listed in weapon's description (thus Acc rating without bracing).

2. A character armed with a gun (Acc 2) takes three consecutive Aim maneuvers. He gets +2 for base Acc, +2 for extra seconds of aiming. He also has braced his gun, which normally provides +1 Acc.

What will be the total bonus: +5 or +4?
Under the rule from B364 it shall be +5 (+2 from base Acc, +2 from extra time, +1 from bracing) as bracing bonus and extra aiming time bonus are not provided by targeting systems.
Under the rule from B372 it shall be +4, as sum of Acc (with bracing it's 3) and extra aiming time bonus (+2) cannot exceed twice the base Acc (2x2=4).

3. A character armed with a gun (Acc 2) uses laser sight (+1 to hit regardless of Aim) and advanced targeting software (+2 to Guns skill regardless of Aim). He takes one Aim maneuver and then attacks.
What will be the total bonus: +5 or +4?
Under the rule from B364 it shall be +4 (+2 from base Acc, +2 from targeting systems), as laser sight and targeting software bonuses are provided by targeting systems.
Under the rul from B372 it shall be +5 (+2 from base Acc, +3 from targeting systems), as laser sight and targeting software bonuses are not aimed-fire bonuses.

4. Add bracing to previous example.

What will be the total bonus?
Under the rule from B364 it shall be +5 (+2 from base Acc, +1 from bracing, +2 from targeting systems), as laser sight and targeting software bonuses are provided by targeting systems.
Under the from B372 it shall be +6 (+2 from base Acc, +1 bracing, +3 from targeting systems), as laser sight and targeting software bonuses are not aimed-fire bonuses.

Currently I assume that rules from B364 and B372 must work in concert, and thus most severe limitation shall be applied in all situations. But actually I don't know if it's right.
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:41 AM   #2
Enoch
 
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Default Re: Aim modifiers and limitations

I think the two rules work at the same time, but I don't think they will ever interact with each other.

1. You are correct.
2. +5
3. +4
4. +5

If you read them literally the targeting system rule only applies to targeting systems not circumstantial aiming bonuses.

The second rule only applies to extra time spent aiming. They don't overlap or counteract each other. This rule only really comes into effect with Acc 1 weapons. With Acc 0 weapon there's no point in aiming at all. With Acc 1 weapon you should never aim for more than 2 seconds since 1+2 > 1 * 2. With accuracy 2 weapons you can completely ignore this rules since you can only ever get 2 seconds of extra aim (2+1+1 = 2 * 2). This is of course ignoring the optional rule of precision aiming.
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Old 10-14-2014, 06:14 AM   #3
Erling
 
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Default Re: Aim modifiers and limitations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
The second rule only applies to extra time spent aiming. They don't overlap or counteract each other. This rule only really comes into effect with Acc 1 weapons. With Acc 0 weapon there's no point in aiming at all. With Acc 1 weapon you should never aim for more than 2 seconds since 1+2 > 1 * 2. With accuracy 2 weapons you can completely ignore this rules since you can only ever get 2 seconds of extra aim (2+1+1 = 2 * 2). This is of course ignoring the optional rule of precision aiming.
Looks like there was a clarification (my bad - I didn't find it earlier), and it strictly contradicts your interpretation:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...3&page=2&pp=10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The intent of the rules is merely that you can't add more to Acc with fancy geegaws than the intrinsic Acc of the weapon. For instance, if your weapon's iron sights give Acc 2, you can't just slap on a scope for +3 Acc and some superscience, jacked-in cyber-sight for +3 Acc more, total +6, for Acc 8. All that junk just adds +2 Acc, for Acc 4. The wording later on is less than clear, I agree, but isn't meant to prevent the +1 or +2 for Aim, +1 for bracing, or +1 for All-Out Attack (Determined).
But now I'm even more confused.

Laser sight and targeting software don't increase Acc - they provide flat bonus to hitting chance or skill. Which rule limits their use - B364 or B372?
If bracing and additional seconds of aiming are not the subject for the limit listed at B372, how should I interpret phrase "all extra aimed-fire bonuses" (B372)?
All bonuses provided by gear?
All bonuses to Acc provided by gear?
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Old 10-14-2014, 06:31 AM   #4
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Aim modifiers and limitations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Looks like there was a clarification (my bad - I didn't find it earlier), and it strictly contradicts your interpretation:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...3&page=2&pp=10


But now I'm even more confused.

Laser sight and targeting software don't increase Acc - they provide flat bonus to hitting chance or skill. Which rule limits their use - B364 or B372?
Probably neither, since they don't add to Acc, but rather Skill.

Quote:
If bracing and additional seconds of aiming are not the subject for the limit listed at B372, how should I interpret phrase "all extra aimed-fire bonuses" (B372)?
All bonuses provided by gear?
All bonuses to Acc provided by gear?
If you really want to cut to the chase, use the Minute of Angle rule from Tactical Shooting. I calculated that the intrinsic "bench-rest" precision of firearms can be represented by a maximum skill limit (before range and target size - any negative modifiers for distance and size) of 22+2xAcc, and that Acc is the weapon's base Acc. I got this by taking MoA for many real-world weapons and doing a best fit for Base+2*Acc for a circular target with size equal to range x MoA of the weapon. The fitting was excellent.

So if you have an Acc 2 handgun, your maximum effective skill is 26. So if you Aim, Brace, Target, Laser, and Pray (see GURPS Divine Favor) for +100 bonus . . . the inherent spread of the weapon will still limit you to a max skill of 26. So a head shot (-5) starts to become less than certain (less than 14 net skill) at a penalty of more than -7, or about 30yds.

If you don't want to worry about everything else, just worry about the max effective skill, and the rest will fall into place pretty well.
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Old 10-14-2014, 07:01 AM   #5
Erling
 
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Default Re: Aim modifiers and limitations

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Probably neither, since they don't add to Acc, but rather Skill.

If you really want to cut to the chase
Thanks, but I'm not trying to study such sophistications :) I just want to understand the rules.

For instance, I use a handgun with base Acc 2. I have level 2 Telescopic Vision (+2 Acc if aiming for 2 seconds). I use a laser sight (flat +1, p. 157 High-Tech allows using telescopic and laser sights together), and targeting program (+1 to skill). I take Aim for two seconds (extra +1). Will I have +7 total bonus (+2 for base Acc, +2 for Telescopic Vision, +1 for laser sight, +1 for software, +1 for extra time)?
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Old 10-14-2014, 05:14 PM   #6
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Aim modifiers and limitations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erling View Post
Thanks, but I'm not trying to study such sophistications :) I just want to understand the rules.

For instance, I use a handgun with base Acc 2. I have level 2 Telescopic Vision (+2 Acc if aiming for 2 seconds). I use a laser sight (flat +1, p. 157 High-Tech allows using telescopic and laser sights together), and targeting program (+1 to skill). I take Aim for two seconds (extra +1). Will I have +7 total bonus (+2 for base Acc, +2 for Telescopic Vision, +1 for laser sight, +1 for software, +1 for extra time)?
The way I'd rule it is that a laser sight and the targeting program both add to Skill. Let's say you had Skill-12 to start. Now you have Skill-14 due to targeting and the laser sight. Your Acc bonus from Telescopic vision does not overwhelm the pistol's Acc 2, so you can eventually claim your full bonus.

I play it a bit differently (I have an extensive house rule for Aim), but I think you might have to increment your Acc bonus from Telescopic Vision over multiple seconds by RAW. Still, you're aiming for extra, so you'll get it eventually.

But you get

Skill-12 goes to Skill-14 due to sight and targeting.

Acc 2 gets boosted by +2 for telescopic vision, +1 for extra time, total of +5 to Acc when you're finished Aiming.

Your shot would be at Skill-19, a total of +7 over your base skill.
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:20 AM   #7
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Aim modifiers and limitations

Isn't it just a matter of keeping track of where various bonuses apply


Some apply directly to skill e.g AoA(determined) laser, reflex and collimating sights, software so aren't relevant*

Some apply directly to weapon Acc e.g fine (accurate) upgrade to the gun and hand loaded rounds, so aren't relevant**

Some apply as bonuses to aimed fire e.g telescopic scopes, bracing and aim actions past 1 sec.


It's only the last group who's combined bonuses that gets capped at Acc.

TBH Honest I think pg364 and pg372 actually reference the same limitation, just the wording is slightly different.


*Although some these can't be done with unsighted shooting

**in terms of counting towards the max limit on bonuses that apply, they'll actual increase the amount of bonuses that can be taken advantage of.
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Old 10-15-2014, 12:35 AM   #8
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Aim modifiers and limitations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Some apply as bonuses to aimed fire e.g telescopic scopes, bracing and aim actions past 1 sec.


It's only the last group who's combined bonuses that gets capped at Acc.
I don't think that's the case, as Kromm has said that aiming Acc 0 weapons does give bonuses after the second and third turn.

Quote:
TBH Honest I think pg364 and pg372 actually reference the same limitation, just the wording is slightly different.
I think B372 is just wrong.
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Old 10-15-2014, 05:11 AM   #9
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Aim modifiers and limitations

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I don't think that's the case, as Kromm has said that aiming Acc 0 weapons does give bonuses after the second and third turn.
The rule obviously doesn't work with Acc. 0 weapons, which are going to be fringe anyway so I'm not sure I work backward from that specific and fringe situation in order to apply it to a wider one.

(also so I'm wrong abut Brace, it adds +1 Acc so belongs in the 2nd category not the 3rd)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I think B372 is just wrong.
Could be, I admit it does raise questions

Last edited by Tomsdad; 10-15-2014 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 10-15-2014, 06:39 AM   #10
Erling
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Default Re: Aim modifiers and limitations

I proceed on the basis that:

1) Kromm has clarified that limitations from B372 don't apply to non-gear bonuses: bracing, extra seconds of aiming, AoA (determined):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The intent of the rules is merely that you can't add more to Acc with fancy geegaws than the intrinsic Acc of the weapon. For instance, if your weapon's iron sights give Acc 2, you can't just slap on a scope for +3 Acc and some superscience, jacked-in cyber-sight for +3 Acc more, total +6, for Acc 8. All that junk just adds +2 Acc, for Acc 4. The wording later on is less than clear, I agree, but isn't meant to prevent the +1 or +2 for Aim, +1 for bracing, or +1 for All-Out Attack (Determined).
Result: non-gear bonuses are NOT capped.

2) Limitations from B364 are listed under Aim section, thus those limitations apply only to bonuses from targeting systems which are gained via Aim maneuver.

Result: bonuses which apply regardless of Aim maneuver are NOT capped.

All in all, limitation applies only to bonuses which are:
- provided by gear;
AND (not OR)
- gained via Aim maneuver.

Result:
Bracing, extra seconds of aim, laser sights, collimating and reflex sights, targeting tactical programs are NOT capped under B364 and B372.

Only gear-based bonuses to Acc (telescopic sights, Telescopic Vision, laser rangefinders) are capped.

I hope that Kromm won't mind if I cite his words from pm:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Yes, the limitations on Accuracy from gear only apply to gear that actually grants capital-A Acc. If the gear grants a skill bonus, and this is not called Acc, then it isn't covered by those limitations.
P.S. I'm not sure about gear like pistol stocks. I'd suppose that it simply increases basic Acc, but actually I don't know what interpretation was intended.

Last edited by Erling; 10-15-2014 at 06:44 AM.
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