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Old 10-16-2016, 09:02 PM   #21
Dave Crowell
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Default Re: Ninja Feedback Forum

When Shockwave came out I thought it added too much needless gunk and complexity to my favorite game. It took me a while to realize I don't have to use all of it at once, or even any of it if don't want to.

I like having the option to field cruise missiles or heavy weapons teams, or Ninjas.

That being said, I do feel overwhelmed by all the options for customizing the Ninja. This is Ogre, not Car Wars!
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:00 AM   #22
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Ninja Feedback Forum

...I really did try to stay on topic here and keep the focus on the NINJA...this was posted on the other NINJA thread...
It all has to do with Combine stealth tech though...it's a very slippery slope this one...lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by eltf177 View Post
On the SHINOBI, what is the LRS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by eltf177 View Post
I'm thinking it's the Nihon Long-Range Secondary Battery...
Yep...It's the Combine version of the Long-Range Secondary Battery.

As an aside, that's just a WIP title for the unit. I like it because it is basically another name for a NINJA, which this unit is basically another form of NINJA. I also have the KATANA, so maybe we are getting too many NIHON unit sounding names used by Combine? Maybe it's fitting there is overlapping NIHON sounding names used by Combine...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
I think there's a big potential for analysis paralysis with these rules, and while I appreciate some options this menu may be too long.
I agree...however, it was stated this is a draft and will be revised over time as feedback and playtesting advances. I think they reviewed forum suggestions, parsed through them and then codified what they wanted based from that and then kind of threw the whole NINJA and kitchen sink at us...lol. But this is exactly what you want to do. It's a process of iteration and I really enjoy it. It's really fun to be part of this. Let them know what you like and don't and why. It's SUPPOSED to be an exhaustive draft list!

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Originally Posted by wolf90 View Post
This is not likely to be the final draft at all. But we do want you to try it, and let us know you're experiences, both positive and not, with the various options (hint: start simple!).

D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Also I wonder why many of these are only options for Ninja, why can't the missile variants in particular be able to replace Rattlers on all Combine Ogres?
They very well may at some point, but for now, this is only about the NINJA. You will want to have parameters for this stuff and how it all fits into the OGREverse...it's a daunting and ongoing task of documenting, reviewing, tweeking, and then deciding what will work and what wont. This is the challenge of taking new and novel ideas along with established ones and then crafting them all together into a flawlessly operating game where everything compliments the IP as only OGRE can. ;)

For example, NIHON is the first to have Long-Range Secondary Batteries available in the game as stated in the NIHON Supplement and now we see the NINJA may have them as well but this doesn't have to mean they are the only units that can. This would Imho, then become an exercise in OGREverse Timeline placement of when these were fielded. For example, it could be said Combine fielded them mid-Last War and NIHON and Paneurope fielded them late-Last War. This was because Combine had the development edge and got them first. Just because there has been no official rules saying non-NINJA Combine OGREs and Paneuropean OGREs have LRS Batteries doesn't mean they don't. It can be a very treacherous design landscape we have here, but it's a lot of fun to explore and try to introduce stuff in a way that will compliment the OGREverse.

My OGREverse designing doctrine is to always first look at the existing material in text as rules and background material and illustrations both as individual components and as a cohesive whole. Like the "Butterfly Effect", one small introduction of something new or a change or tweek will effect the overall OGREverse, so yes we absolutely have to be respectful of the source material and allow it to grow if and when that growth is wanted. At that point, growth will become part of the source material and on it goes. I fully realize OGRE is a simple, sophisticated and elegant game, but the foundation has such integrity Imho, there is much more to explore and build upon. In other words...to quote a famous Corellian Pilot..."don't worry, she'll hold together!"
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:33 AM   #23
GranitePenguin
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Default Re: Ninja Feedback Forum

My biggest issue is the accounting/bookkeeping/general loss of sanity dealing with all of this.

1. How do you purchase said tricks?
2. Does the opponent know about them?
3. What's the expectation for tracking everything?

If we really are going to go down the road of semi-random pile-o-whatits; one way to minimize the bookkeeping might be to introduce a card system for all the tricks. You could even keep the deck in a literal bag o' tricks, if that tickles your fancy. Then it would be a lot simpler to do just about everything. It's easy to pull out the cards you want to use, and at playtime, display the card with the corresponding rules text.

This is just me trying to make it all make sense; too many of these feel waaaay out in left field and are too far away from what Ogre is meant to be in my eyes. If it takes longer to deal with the rules for a single unit than the time it takes to play a whole game, you are doing it wrong.
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Old 10-17-2016, 02:20 AM   #24
Tim Kauffman
 
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I will try and make this as concise and painless as possible. :)

One game designing point would be the reward of learning and using a rule in a game should be at least slightly more than the effort it takes to learn and use that rule...that's where the "fun" factor/replayability of a game comes in. Now, the more of a learning curve it takes to understand a rule and use it in the game, the more that rule should be fun to play in the game...that's the reward and what keeps you wanting to play again. One element that exponentially increases a rules reward is by how much it is adding new, novel and cool stuff to the game that compliment the game, the game play, and as importantly the games background. It may be a really cool rule, but what it is ruling may not be, it may be a bad rule but what it is ruling is really cool. Just because a rule is bad does not mean that which it was ruling is. You just have to find what will work best. Enter the realm of late night musings and bleeding eyeballs...lol

Anything I list here is what I think needs tweeking to some degree. If it's not listed, it means I gave it two thumbs up.


Through the use of the Ninja's drones and EW suite, it may create two ghosts of itself. A ghost is indistinguishable from the real thing outside of direct inspection. When the Ninja enters the map, it may split into three separate units, one being the actual Ninja and the other two being ghosts. Each unit may move independently, and if attacked at range, may appear to suffer damage. The owner of the Ninja should keep a record of "damage" to the ghosts as well as the real Ninja, until such a time as the ghost(s) is/are dispelled.

The primary method by which the opposition can determine whether any particular Ninja is real or not is by overrunning (or being overrun by) the Ninja. Under this circumstance a false Ninja disappears whereas an overrun attack proceeds if it is the real Ninja. Additionally, the real Ninja declares itself upon firing on a target. One exception to it revealing itself with firing is if all of the ghosts are within range of the target with the same weapon system. In that case, all of the Ninjas may appear to be firing on the target, and the real Ninja is not revealed.

If the Ninja has fewer than two ghosts created, it may create one or two as needed to bring it back up to two total ghosts if desired, provided that there are no enemy units within two hexes of the spawning Ninja at the start of its turn. Both/all of the Ninjas move out from the origin hex during the movement phase. Note one Ninja need not move at all (either a ghost or the real thing) as long as by the end of the turn, each Ninja occupies its own individual hex. At no time may the Ninja have more than two ghosts active. If one ghost is dissipated, the Ninja may create a new second ghost from either the true Ninja or the surviving ghost, subject to the two-hex rule as above for the spawning Ninja. A Ninja may spawn a total of six ghosts before needing to restock their drones.

As the ghost is in part comprised of a series of small drones, it does have the same detection capabilities of the real Ninja. This means the ghost may dispel an enemy ghost (note: two ghosts would dispel each other, in this circumstance!), suppress the spawning of a new ghost if within two hexes, detect mines or hidden units, dispel dummy counters, etc. Note: a ghost entering a hex with a mine or hidden unit is dispelled the same as the overrun detection described above.

I like the concept, but this seems too much to deal with in the game, especially the record keeping of the damage and dummy tokens. This is making the NINJA a more difficult target, but there are too many moving parts Imho. Maybe we can make this more concise and manageable.

FanMade idea ALERT: Maybe just have the NINJA be able to deploy decoy drones of itself. They can detect stuff as the NINJA. Once they are attacked, they are destroyed and removed from play. The NINJA can carry 6? DDs and pays ? VP for each DD it carries. Up to 6 DDs may be actively deployed at one time. This limit is also how many can be stacked in a hex and for every DD in the same hex when detecting mines a +1 modifier to detect and avoid mines is added to the detection roll.


The Ninja has a single drone channel in the manner of a Vulcan. This drone-control channel could be used to communicate with the onboard computer systems of a regular armor unit. Those systems, unaided, will allow an armor unit to move intelligently over short distances, and to attack at half strength; that's why disabled units defend normally and attack at half strength while the crew recovers. With a Ninja in the loop, the combat unit may be controlled and function normally in the absence of a human crew.

If the Ninja is not trying to do any more with a controlled unit than keep it nearby and drive it along, it may have up to four units of any type in the drone control "channel." So a Ninja might be followed by up to 4 "ducklings," all within one hex of the Ninja. These ducklings may be any combination of armor units or vehicles.

In a combat situation, the "ducklings" fight at half strength. They must either stay within a hex of the Ninja or stop moving completely, in which case they are considered disabled. (Of course, if there is a live crew aboard, it can take over.)

In most surprise combat situations, a Ninja with ducklings would simply take full control of the most useful one and drop the others to fend for themselves as disabled units. The Ninja determines which duckling is under active control at the beginning of each turn. It can switch which one it controls each turn. If a group of ducklings is overrun, the Ninja can take active control of one of the units for the duration of the overrun; the remainder of the units should be treated as disabled.

I like the concept, but this seems too much to deal with in the game. Maybe we can make this more concise and manageable.

FanMade idea ALERT: How about you pay for how many friendly units you can remote control once they become Disabled by an attack and they then are considered normal units not suffering a Disable effect as long as they are within a certain range of the NINJA.
This range could be variable pay-per-hex of radius VP cost.


Zombies. 1 trick, 10 VP. The Ninja has four drone channels instead of just one. Each of these channels is subject the drone rules described above. A Ninja may actively control up to four units at one time.

FanMade idea ALERT: Just allow the NINJA to purchase how many they want to control individually, say 2 or 3 VP per unit with a maximum of ?

Puppet Master. 2 tricks, 25 VP. Using a drone channel and harsh EW, a Ninja may forcibly take control of an enemy unit. To take control of an enemy unit, a Ninja must be within 6 hexes of the target unit. On a roll of a 6, the Ninja has successfully burned through the unit's countermeasures and taken control of the unit. If a Ninja is attempting to take control of a disabled unit, it succeeds on a roll of a 5 or 6. This attempt is made at the very end of the Ninja's turn, immediately prior to the other player's turn beginning.

Once under control of the Ninja, the enslaved unit may attempt to break free by rolling a 6 during the Recovery Phase. It adds one to its roll for each additional turn it is enslaved as long as it's not disabled. Disabled, enslaved units may only break free on a roll of a natural 6. If it fails to break free, that unit is controlled by Ninja during the enemies turn. The Ninja moves this unit prior to the other enemy units moving during the Movement Phase; fires this unit prior to the other enemy units firing during the Firing Phase; and if it is a GEV, moves it prior to any other enemy GEVs moving during the 2nd Movement Phase. Once enslaved, the controlled unit need not stay within six hexes of the Ninja for the Ninja to maintain control.

A Ninja with both the Zombies and Puppet Master tricks may control up to four enemy units at one time. A Ninja may only attempt to gain control of one unit per turn but may attempt to add additional units on subsequent turns.

FanMade idea ALERT: Allow the NINJA to use "channels" as modifiers to increase their chance of success and as the number of enemies they can attempt to enslave. For example, the NINJA has 4 channels and uses one to attack an enemy unit and the other three as a + 3 modifier, so it needs a 4, 5, or 6 for success. For example, the NINJA uses three to attack three enemy units and the other one as a + 1 modifier (applied to every target), so it needs a 5 or 6 for each of those three enslavement attacks.


Extra Ghost. 1 trick, 10 VP. The Ninja has two additional ghosts available to it. It still may only have no more than two operating at one time.

No need for this with my idea. You are paying a VP cost for each one.
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Old 10-17-2016, 02:20 AM   #25
Tim Kauffman
 
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Default Re: Ninja Feedback Forum

Berserker I. 1 trick, 5 VP. The attack strength of the Ninja's AP weapons is doubled.

Berserker II. 1 trick, 5 VP. The range of the Ninja's AP weapons is doubled.

Berserker III. 1 trick, 15 VP. Both the attack strength and the range of the Ninja's AP weapons are doubled.

By doubling the attack strength, it means those AP Guns are doing more damage now...which may mean they are now able to attack units they currently cannot, units other than just Infantry that have lighter armor on the unit scale of armor toughness.

FanMade idea ALERT: Here is a FanMade suggestion from another thread having them OGRE with Descartes Packages AP Guns, but this would work well for the new NINJA Berserker AP Guns as another Trick and go together like peanut butter and jelly:

NINJA Berserker AP Guns can make attacks on GEV units, Infantry, Trucks, LADs or any other D0 or D1 unit.
Such attacks can only DISABLE these non-Infantry targets, thus, Xs are treated as Ds, Ds are treated as Ds, and NEs are treated as NEs.
Infantry will be reduced as usual and Ds still count as Xs for them.

THIS WOULD BE OPTIONAL (See below): As 7.05.1 AP weapons rules except: "Berserker AP Guns may fire at the same GEV units, Infantry, Trucks, LADs or any other D0 or D1 unit more than once per turn".

??? Not sure if they could have any in-game effect on structures/buildings but that may be complimentary fun to say they do.

Attacker and Defender roll 2 OGRE DE D6 for this. The highest result attacks first. If the lower result unit is not DISABLED or Xed after this attack, it may then attack. Ties go to the Defender. (This may be too much, but I think it is worth the extra effort because it is allowing a chance the defender may get to attack first, instead of them just suffering automatic attacks. It creates a nice OGREish tension to the battle. This 2 D6 roll is modified as follows:

OGRE Mark 1 = +1
OGRE MARK 2 = +2
OGRE MARK 3 = +3
OGRE MARK 4 = +4
OGRE MARK 5 = +5
OGRE MARK 6 = +6
OGRE Mark 7 = +7 ;)

NINJA = +???

All units in the same Stack are rolled for as if they were a single unit, and only eligible units within the Stack are effected by the NINJA Berserker AP Gun rules.

NINJA Berserker AP Guns which have not yet fired are usable for the remainder of the turn and you can use a # Token to show how many are left.

Attacking units that go first and have secondary movement may, after making their attack, move their secondary movement.

This would really compliment the NINJA as it's role as a stealthy raider. Keep in mind attacks from NINJA Berserker AP Guns can only ever DISABLE a unit. If you allow the rule where the NINJA can attack the same target with more than one Berserker AP Guns attack, it would give the player options to either go for more Disables or fewer Disables and more Xs, because a second Disable Xs the unit, in this case allowing Xs on targets.

This distinction of allowing attacks on the same target to get two Ds = X or not allowing it and only Ds creates two versions, let's WIP call them Berserker AP Guns which can only do Ds, and BerserkerX AP Guns that can do two Ds = X. (See what I did there with the X? We call that "rule recognition" and by having the X in the title and it relating to X damage, it makes the rule at-a-glance friendly).


Laser Beam. 3 tricks, 40 VP. This is essentially a mobile laser turret (see section 12.02 in Ogre Designer's Edition). All rules applicable to a standard laser turret apply here as well. There is a laser array mounted on the Ninja that is normally retracted within the Ninja until deployed for use. The Ninja must deploy the array at least one turn prior to using the laser. Once deployed, the array may be targeted by external attacks. The laser array has a defense of 4 and is immune to 'D' results in the same manner as all other Ogre weapons. The Ninja may retract the array as well. Retracting the array takes one full turn, and the laser may not fire that turn. It is fully retracted at the start of the next turn. (In other words, the enemy has one more chance to fire on it.)

The OGRE operated Laser looks like it's going official. :) We have them in the upcoming NIGHTFALL Supplement and some FanMade as well: https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...7656167698856/

FanMade idea ALERT: I would allow this the following additional ability because it is operated by an OGRE and would be superior to a crew-mounted Laser. They function as a standard Laser but can also fire every turn if they attacked OGRE Missiles or not.


Night Fog. 1 trick, 10 VP. This jammer can prevent any unit within a 5 hex radius from combining its fire with any other unit. Infantry may still combine into platoons. Enemy Ogres may still combine the fire of any of its own weapons.

FanMade idea ALERT: I'd like to have this put into three different Tricks.

NIGHT FOG A. 1 Trick, ? VP. This jammer can prevent any attacks on the NINJA form being combined attacks.

NIGHT FOG B. 1 Trick, ? VP per hex radius range. This jammer can prevent any units within a 1-6? hex radius of the NINJA from being attacked by combined attacks.

NIGHT FOG C. 1 Trick, ? VP per hex radius range. This jammer can prevent any unit within a 1-6? hex radius of the NINJA from combining its fire with any other unit. Infantry may still combine fire as platoons. Enemy Ogres may NOT combine the fire of any of its own weapons.

Morning Mist. 1 Trick, ? VP per hex radius range. This jammer causes any unit targeting the Ninja within units within 1-6? hex radius of the NINJA to have a harder time to hit it on the CRT. Subtract 1 from the die roll of any attack made against a Ninja with this trick, except attacks by infantry in overruns.

Does this effect a Cruise Missile attack?


Recon By Fire Missile. 15 VP. An RBF missile is treated like a normal missile except it does no damage to a target. It scouts everything in the target hex and all adjacent hexes as thoroughly as if the Ninja itself were there. Range 15 hexes.

Seems too expensive for a one and done, and not at it's full potential.

FanMade idea ALERT: Maybe allowing it to scout every hex it flies over AND all adjacent hexes would suit this better, this way, the NINJA can use this to find a clear path for itself to move through?


Obviously my tweeks and suggestions will have the VP costs adjusted accordingly for game balance.

Some of these NINJA abilities I see as NINJA portable versions of ones that are used in Fortifications...I also see a supplement about stuff like this with new 3D counters. ;)

The best rule is the concise rule that introduces a complimentary, novel and fun experience that resonates through the entire game with the other rules exponentially to become more than the sum of it's parts transcending both time and space...lol...

I think it would help by dividing the rules as I did into smaller more concise ones because here we are using VP points to purchase these abilities so you will have the most options and more importantly, such rules will be more at-glance recognizable as to what they are and do. The way they were, this could not be done.
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Old 10-17-2016, 03:21 AM   #26
Tim Kauffman
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
My biggest issue is the accounting/bookkeeping/general loss of sanity dealing with all of this.

1. How do you purchase said tricks?
"The Ninja Bag of Tricks

As Ninjas were used for specific missions, they inherently have a large degree of customization. These specialized attributes are collectively known as a 'bag of tricks', each having their own VP value and spatial requirements. Every Ninja is capable of carrying two tricks without alteration to their weapons package. However, a Ninja may carry up to five total tricks by subtracting internal missiles. A Ninja may substitute two internal missiles for a third trick or replace the entire missile rack and internal missile load for three additional tricks (thereby totaling five). Some tricks are capable of being destroyed by external attacks or expended through use, whereas others are inherent abilities unique to that specific Ninja (see description)."


This is excellent Imho and well done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
2. Does the opponent know about them?
I would say not until they are used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
3. What's the expectation for tracking everything?
Please elaborate...it's late and my eyeballs are bleeding...lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
If we really are going to go down the road of semi-random pile-o-whatits; one way to minimize the bookkeeping might be to introduce a card system for all the tricks. You could even keep the deck in a literal bag o' tricks, if that tickles your fancy. Then it would be a lot simpler to do just about everything. It's easy to pull out the cards you want to use, and at playtime, display the card with the corresponding rules text.
If you want to run the most sophisticated OGRE in the OGREverse, you have to be willing to deal with handling more rules. The real trick in this NINJA's Bag Of Tricks will be crafting one that will have players willing to do just that.

The Deck Of Tricks is a great idea, and the bag...lol. Maybe you could optionally be required to have them on the table face down so your opponent at least knows how many they are dealing with, maybe this will reduce the NINJAs VP cost by some amount?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
This is just me trying to make it all make sense; too many of these feel waaaay out in left field and are too far away from what Ogre is meant to be in my eyes. If it takes longer to deal with the rules for a single unit than the time it takes to play a whole game, you are doing it wrong.
You would have stealth technology and other stuff like this going on in the OGREverse. Even today, we have the "Duckling" rule IRL being used.
This should be kept in perspective, these units and their stealth technology are rare. I think all the Combine stealth tech development that's finally coming to a head is overshadowing in an unrealistic way the OGREverse. It's a rare unit and rare technology. In that context, I think it's really cool and compliments the game.

I share the concern, but I think they are doing it right. As Drew posted, it sounds like many of these won't make the cut...which is why my eyeballs are bleeding now trying to make them all work...lol...because I think they all have a place in the OGREverse.

FanMade idea ALERT: Here's a FanMade idea for a more advanced optional version of the PUPPET MASTER Trick called (PUPPET MASTERX): Allow this attack against enemy OGREs. You would have a comparative dice roll off between the two with some modifiers if the NINJA rolls higher, it enslaves the enemy OGRE, if the enemy OGRE rolls the highest the attempt fails, causing the NINJA some damage...maybe this would be the only time OGREs can become Disabled by an attack! :) The NINJA uses the modifiers for the FanMade version of the Official PUPPET MASTER Trick (PUPPET MASTERX): Allow the NINJA to use "channels" as modifiers to increase their chance of success when attacking an OGRE. The OGRE has a +1 for each MARK of OGRE it is. For example, the NINJA is attempting to PUPPET MASTER a MARK5 which has a +5 and the NINJA has 4 channels and uses one to attack the enemy OGRE and the other three as a + 3 modifier. This means the MARK5 has a +2 advantage. Ties Disable both the enemy OGRE and the NINJA.

Hows that for left field? Now that would be an epic battle! Imagine a NINJA with at least PUPPET MASTERX and a Mark5 going toe-to-toe. If the NINJA looses the struggle and becomes Disabled, that's a big deal. This raises a question...can enslaved OGREs be made to attack themselves??? I'm going with YES!...even to the sound of the three stooges..."why you hitting yourself???...lol. This would go back and forth until one is scrap metal.

The enemy OGREhas a +1 for each MARK of OGRE that it is. Thus, a Mark5 would have a +5 to the Die roll.

This is my next playtest, a NINJA with at least PUPPET MASTERX going against a Mark5. Yes, this flies in the face of NINJAs not being OGREs that go up against other OGREs directly, but this would be a really cool exception. It would be a very situational use ability. You would have to pay and equip your NINJA to be this way, more offensive than usual. I will report back as soon as possible with a Video Battle Report. NINJA vs HUSCARL from Stuttgart. :)

Place your bets!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/128248...7650555669260/
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:05 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzardo View Post
Call me a wet blanket or an old fuddy-duddy or whatever, but all these options take the game in a direction that doesn't interest me. Ogre has always been a nice, simple game that I could play once or twice pretty quickly. Ye olde Bag o' Tricks runs counter to the game I like. A plain old -1 to hit worked for me. Everything else seems to add bookkeeping and fiddly bits to my simple game.

Feel free to ignore me, though. I'm sure (evidence above) that other folks like these ideas.
Agreed. I won't be using anything near as complicated as these rules in Ogre. I've got other games for that sort of thing; Ogre is there to be easy and fast.

This something I've seen running through all three recent-ish proposals: they introduce new game concepts, rules, exceptions, and complexity for not much benefit to the actual game. Why would I bother ever using the "ducklings" when I can just buy four normal units and have them act, well, normally? Why not just say, "the Ninja can be accompanied by up to four drone versions of regular units; these are treated exactly as their manned equivalents, but shut down if the Ninja is destroyed." See, that's simple and easy to remember, and has nearly the same impact on the game as those paragraphs in the proposal.
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Old 10-17-2016, 08:15 AM   #28
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I was going to go through and see how I could simplify the rules further, but I've got a shrieking case of depression telling me to go back to bed. I'll try to do them later, to illustrate my points.
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Old 10-17-2016, 10:10 AM   #29
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I'm afraid I'm another one of those old fuddy-duddies. I can barely get myself to use LGEV, LtTank, or SHVY in a game, the Ninja and Vulcan just feel way too "left field" for my tastes. While the future history states there are advances continually being made, it's also an era when civilization is breaking down completely; and an item like a Ninja seems more suited to the post-war world when the machines have taken over, than an era when humans are (in theory) still running things.

[added edit: Part of what makes Ogre fun is the speed of play, and the complexities in an already "simple" game. Adding in lots of complex units and rules changes the experience for me. I have said before, if I wanted ASL, I'd play ASL.]
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Old 10-17-2016, 12:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman View Post
One game designing point would be the reward of learning and using a rule in a game should be at least slightly more than the effort it takes to learn and use that rule...that's where the "fun" factor/replayability of a game comes in. Now, the more of a learning curve it takes to understand a rule and use it in the game, the more that rule should be fun to play in the game...that's the reward and what keeps you wanting to play again.
With you so far.

Quote:
One element that exponentially increases a rules reward is by how much it is adding new, novel and cool stuff to the game that compliment the game, the game play, and as importantly the games background.
Here I disagree, specifically for ogre, and generally for my own taste in games. The rules reward comes from high-value, simple rules that combine in interesting ways. New rules typically clash badly with existing rules, and risk changing the core of the game. Rules novelty is fleeting and leads to a doomed escalation.

Or try Fluxx.

I like games with simple rules that make adding new, novel, cool things easy. Ogre takes that to an extreme - NAC and PAN units have the same stats. That's an area we've only explored a little: LTs, MHWZs, LGEVs, and SHVYs, and we could go pretty far, building a force from maybe 4, 9, and 15 VP units. It'd change the way the game plays in a possibly interesting way, with no new rules except stats on the counters and some background paragraphs.

That simplicity is really unusual in a war game, much of what makes Ogre special. There are many other wargames out there that rely on us players deeply studying the rulebook to find novel combinations and optimized loop-holes. SFB comes to mind. Car Wars is pulling back from that extreme to "I want a game that lets me drive fast and shoot things."

I shy away from the cruise missile rules. They add a game-within-a-game, which involves a lot of very slow dice rolls, and results in a coin toss. I suppose cruise missiles make stacks of SHVYs and ogres less survivable, but I find the mechanism tedious. It usually results in a 40%-60% chance of tipping the game. It's "fun once" - not a lot of value for the page-or-three of rules.

I'm not sure the ninja rules as presented would even be "fun once" for anyone but the player controlling the ninja. That player gets to pick which three-paragraph-sets of rules to try in the game. His opponent has to study and remember all of the three-paragraph-sets, then guess right through the game. That's a lot of time spent not playing (boredom), then playing but only using a small proportion of the rules just learned (disappointment). It's a big divisor shrinking the value of rules.

Quote:
It may be a really cool rule, but what it is ruling may not be, it may be a bad rule but what it is ruling is really cool. Just because a rule is bad does not mean that which it was ruling is.
That I'll agree with. From the background material a ninja should be a cool ogre to drive. However, it shouldn't get more than two or three paragraphs of rules. Ogre already has a simple ways improve defense and attacks via abstract stats.

I think the ninja should be a MkIV with some version of doubled defense plus a good stealth gimmick. The die roll modification for rangers seems a good start. A small number of single-use decoys could make for a good opening gambit, or to help the ninja escape. Defending against that would make an interesting puzzle.
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