Min/Max of Attributes

[LemmingLord]

I wouldn't put a cap on attributes but rather simply ask for a concept. If the concept goes with your setting and the story you and your players want to tell, allow it and let them take whatever stats make sense.

As far as Star Trek goes, command officers can absolutely be given iq 12 or Dix 12 based on references to them being the best and the brightest with tough training. I would encourage bang skills or talents based on their department (ie helmsman! Or helmsman talent) rather than über iq.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by RedMattis

Strength scales differently than the others attributes.

True enough, though I'd state it a wee differently:

Maximum believable ST is amenable to reality checking: it's easy enough to demonstrate that, say, 13 is too low as a human max and ST 30 is too high.

The other attributes are entirely abstract and have no basis for reality checking. Whether the maximum believable DX is 15 or 20 or some other number is really up to the GM's sense of feel and game play.

(For GMs who don't have a clear sense of that, though, suggestions from the game designers and from threads like this are great stuff!)

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Why would you want to do that?

Based on lifting capability and such, ST for humans goes higher than 16. As a matter of fact, I think ST 18+ is far less remarkable than DX, IQ or HT of 15+.

In a realistic setting, I limit Attributes to 15 or lower, except for ST, which tops out at 20.

Dedicated weight lifters will also have Lifting ST and the Lifting skill (up to maybe skill 20 for "best in the world"). With that in mind, max ST 15 but up to +3 Lifting ST seems like a reasonable limit.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Dedicated weight lifters will also have Lifting ST and the Lifting skill (up to maybe skill 20 for "best in the world"). With that in mind, max ST 15 but up to +3 Lifting ST seems like a reasonable limit.

Given the current world records of (squat, 460 kg \ 1014.13 lbs) (deadlift, 397.5 kg \ 876.337 lbs) (bench press, 357.5 kg \ 788.15259 lbs) ...

1. Assuming a Lifting Skill of 25 ...
   Assuming a critical success ...
   
   MOS = (25 - 3) or 22
   22 * 5% = +110% BL
   
   Assuming "carry on back" encumbrance ... (BL x 15)
   
   1014.13 / 15 = 67.6 BL
   67.6 / (1 + 1.1) = 32.1946 BL
   
   Total Min ST 13
   Actual Total Min ST 12.68751354679
   
   Assuming "two-handed lift" encumbrance ... (BL x 8)
   
   1014.13 / 8 = 126.76625 BL
   126.76625 / (1 + 1.1) = 60.36488 BL
   
   Total Min ST 18
   Actual Total Min ST 17.373
2. Assuming a Lifting Skill of 25 ...
   Assuming a critical success ...
   Assuming extra effort ...
   Assuming Will 20 ...
   Assuming a critical success ...
   Assuming an additional +5 for motivation ...
   
   MOS = (25 - 3) or 22
   22 * 5% = +110% BL
   
   Assuming "carry on back" encumbrance ... (BL x 15)
   
   1014.13 / 15 = 67.6 BL
   67.6 / (1 + 1.1 + 1.1) = 21.1277 BL
   
   Total Min ST 11
   Actual Total Min ST 10.278
   
   Assuming "two-handed lift" encumbrance ... (BL x 8)
   
   1014.13 / 8 = 126.76625 BL
   126.76625 / (1 + 1.1 + 1.1) = 39.614453125 BL
   
   Total Min ST 15
   Actual Total Min ST 14.07381489238

Conclusion:
Effective Lifting ST 18~ sounds fine for people with Skill 25.
Effective Lifting ST of 15~ sounds fine for people with Skill 25 and Will 20.

Less skilled and less willful individuals will see the minimum ST requirements to pull those stunts off go up by a not-insignificant amount.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Conclusion:
Effective Lifting ST 18~ sounds fine for people with Skill 25.
Effective Lifting ST of 15~ sounds fine for people with Skill 25 and Will 20.

Ah, so a human max of 15 ST is reasonable, and works out nicely if you consider that DX, IQ, and HT max at 15.

For other species, which rule of thumb do the wise denizens of the GURPS forums prefer?

1. Max ability is 5+ species average.
2. Max ability is 1.5x species average.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Ah, so a human max of 15 ST is reasonable, and works out nicely if you consider that DX, IQ, and HT max at 15.

For other species, which rule of thumb do the wise denizens of the GURPS forums prefer?

1. Max ability is 5+ species average.
2. Max ability is 1.5x species average.

For ST, you won't get a sensible range for anything much removed from human norms if you don't use a multiplier. Consider average members of your species have ST 1 and can lift a pound, you have ST 6 and can lift 36 times as much, or average members of your species have ST 100 and can lift 5 tons, but you the strongest one ever can lift 5 and a half....

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

Ah, so a human max of 15 ST is reasonable, and works out nicely if you consider that DX, IQ, and HT max at 15.

If you are allowing Will 20, you are likewise allowing IQ 20. I'd suggest using ST 18~.

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

For other species, which rule of thumb do the wise denizens of the GURPS forums prefer?

1. Max ability is 5+ species average.
2. Max ability is 1.5x species average.

I'd suggest using BL and not ST for such comparisons.

ST 10, BL 20
ST 15, BL 45, x2.25 of BL 20
ST 18, BL 65, x3.25 of BL 20

So if your alien race as a racial BL of 29 (about times and a half stronger than we are) (ST 12), then its' maximum should be either BL 62.25 (ST 18~) or BL 94.25 (ST 22~).
... depending on whether you are allowing cinematic to superhuman levels of Will.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

If you are allowing Will 20, you are likewise allowing IQ 20. I'd suggest using ST 18~.

With max ST 15, max Lifting ST is at least 18. That's plenty.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

With max ST 15, max Lifting ST is at least 18. That's plenty.

My numbers are inclusive of Lifting ST. If the campaign in question allows for up to Lifting ST 3 (for humans anywise), then the human maximum ST for that campaign would be either 12~ or 15~.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

If you are allowing Will 20, you are likewise allowing IQ 20. I'd suggest using ST 18~.

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

My numbers are inclusive of Lifting ST. If the campaign in question allows for up to Lifting ST 3 (for humans anywise), then the human maximum ST for that campaign would be either 12~ or 15~.

You're confusing me.

Is it unrealistic to say human max IQ is 15, human max Will is 20, human max ST is 15, human max Lifting ST is 18?