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Old 08-21-2013, 12:39 AM   #31
dcarson
 
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Default Re: Terradyne

The figures I've seen for how long the Luna would hold a breathable atmosphere range up from one hundred thousand years to maybe a million. Mars is bigger and cooler so longer then that. Yeah they only hold it a short time but to a geologist/planetologist a million years is a shortish time. Which is why you never lend them money :-).
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Old 08-21-2013, 03:26 AM   #32
vierasmarius
 
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Default Re: Terradyne

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Originally Posted by tshiggins View Post
If you want something similar to Terradyne, use THS and subtract out the parts you don't want, and you'll have a setting that's still better than the original.
This actually makes me pretty interested in the Terradyne setting. I always felt the THS bio- and nano-tech were too optimistic, bordering on superscience in some cases, and unbelievable within the timescale proposed. If I was doing a "toned-down THS" game would it be worth picking up old Terradyne books, or should I just trim down THS?
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:33 AM   #33
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Terradyne

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
About a hundred millenia.
Okay, that's probably enough time for the Human species to ding one more Tech Level.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:54 AM   #34
Peter Knutsen
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I'd like to add that I was probably wrong in writing '90% won't care.' Change that to 'most' or 'many', and I still think it's valid.

But Peter does make good points. A 'future history' SF game setting with what would now be retrotech computers should have some explanation for that difference.
I disagree. No explanation is needed. It's simply alternate history.

You can have whatever premises you like, as a worldbuilder. No one has the right to attack[1] your premises. If you want to have retro-tech computers and electronics, defined according to certain parameters (such as processing speed, data transfer speed, data storage volume), then you can.

That's your privilege, as worldbuilder.

But it's likewise your duty to extrapolate from those premises to reach a conclusion, how the world is, a conclusion that has intellectual legitimacy. That is what the audience (your players, in particular) has the right to attack. If your conclusion is screwy, then your players have every right to complain about that.

Say computer processors burn out easily, but are also easy to replace manually. I actually toyed with that, for my slightly silly space opera setting. All computers, including primitive cyberdecks for hackers, would have multiple exposed processing cards, with some kind of LED on each card to indicate that it it near failure, meaning one or two connections or transistors have burned out but thanks to redundancy it's still able to perform at reduced steam, and another LED to indicate that the processing card has become non-functional and needs to be replaced.

During cyberspace capers, the hacker, immersed in VR (which is - somehow - possible in spite of processor being slow-ass to the point of ridiculoousness), then needs an assistant who stays in realspace and pays attention to the cyberdeck, and manually replaces the processing cards as they burn out (presumably they are more likely to burn out if "overclocked"), according to the LED signalling.

I eventually mostly dropped that premise, though, because I couldn't extrapolate from it. I don't know enough. So I went with "generic retro-tech, slow primtiive computers" instead and dropped most specifics.



Tech is a certain way, can perform at certain parameters. From that you extrapolate the world.

What would the world be like if comptuter data cables had to be an inch thick each, and could only transfer 1 MB per hour? If even mainframe computers can't compute faster than an early 80's home 8-bit machine, like the C64 or Amstrad 464?

The people in the world will exploit the possibilities inherent in whatever tech is available to them (in our world controlled nuclear fusion is possible, so we're spending a lot of resources trying to figure out how to exploit that possibility). We have ultrafast computers (and cheap too), ginormous data storages, and we can move bits from place to place real fast. We utilize that. In all sorts of ways. Google. Netflix streaming. And so forth. All sorts of ways, rather than just a few ways that happen to appela to the worldbuilder's personal preferences, or that suits one very particular "story" that he wants to tell. Buit in all sorts of way, including more or less silly ones (streamed video, MMO games) and more serious ones like Google or Wikipedia, or this forum.

If the possibilities inherent in tech are otherwise (the premises), are more limiting, or if they have certain flavoured constraints, then the resuling world (the conclusion - the result of the worldbuilder's extrapolative work) will be different.

So, you set some premises (that can also be how magic works - laws of metaphysics - in a fantasy setting), and extrapolate from those, to reach a conclusion. You then evaluate this conclusion for personal preference, as well as for inherent dramatic potential (including instances where it is absent - I still like my processing-cards-burning-out-idea, but I am keenly aware that having to be te guy who sits there and replaces the card reactively is not a good PC role, because it's freakin' boring). If you're not happy with it, if you see something you dislike, or if you think you can do better, you go back and male small canges to the premises, then you re-extrapolate.

Think about spaceship design systems. AFAIK Classic Traveller didn't discern between auxillary craft based on precisely shaped vehicle bays and ones stored in hangars. That had implications, the physics of the rule systemhad implications, for how the empires and other nations in the setting designed their spaceships.

Later, GURPS Traveller arrived, and now it suddenly made a difference whether you stored your fighter craft in vehicle bays or in huge hangars. Vehicle bays were more efficient, but hangars allow for repairs, so may ultimately be better.

Or think about Travellers FTL system. Jumping between systems require ginormous volumes of hydrogen, but you can jump from almost anywhere in any system, to amost anywhere in any other system that is within range. That affects how empires are founed and expand, how wars are fought, what wars are fought over. A different FTL paradigm would result in a very differently shaped world.



[1] Actually, you can attack the premises in one legitimate way. You can attack them for being inferior, in terms of dramatic potential, to largely similar premises. "Dude, you're doing X. If you hadinstead done Y, which is almost like X but not quite, the resulting world would have been a lot better." But I very much doubt that most people are good enoguh worldbuilders to be able to see those things. Andso as a primary rule, no, you're not allowed to attack the premises, ever. spend your energy on what matters: the conclusion.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:56 AM   #35
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Terradyne

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
This actually makes me pretty interested in the Terradyne setting. I always felt the THS bio- and nano-tech were too optimistic, bordering on superscience in some cases, and unbelievable within the timescale proposed. If I was doing a "toned-down THS" game would it be worth picking up old Terradyne books, or should I just trim down THS?
My impression, very indirect, is that Terradyne has a lower TL than THS (probably just 1 TL, but that still matters a lot), and may also be somewhat grittier, and obviously all of the transhumanism makes the setting less easily accessible to players.

If you imagine all potential players for such campaigns, then a large subset of those will have problems wrapping their heads around the severe transhumanism of THS, while only a small subset will have genuine problems embracing the retro-tech of Terradyne.
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:24 AM   #36
vierasmarius
 
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Default Re: Terradyne

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
If you imagine all potential players for such campaigns, then a large subset of those will have problems wrapping their heads around the severe transhumanism of THS, while only a small subset will have genuine problems embracing the retro-tech of Terradyne.
Personally, I have less trouble with the transhumanist elements of THS than the methods they used to achieve it, and the timescale involved. I'd prefer if it had a slower, steadier progression, involving incremental improvements to different humanoid and animal "strains". Instead we got designer babies, living hats and grey goo. Just a little silly, IMO.
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:48 AM   #37
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Terradyne

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Originally Posted by vierasmarius View Post
Personally, I have less trouble with the transhumanist elements of THS than the methods they used to achieve it, and the timescale involved. I'd prefer if it had a slower, steadier progression, involving incremental improvements to different humanoid and animal "strains". Instead we got designer babies, living hats and grey goo. Just a little silly, IMO.
I think the rapid change is part of the intended appeal of the setting. Crap changes real fast! Everything changes fast!
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:36 AM   #38
tantric
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Default Re: Terradyne

How to differentiate Terradyne from THS? And how to made Terradyne more interesting? I have an inkling of an updated cyberpunk. A world where gene mods on humans were never allowed, but cyborgs are more common. Also, a much darker world, with starvation and nuclear war. Does anyone remember the old TSR Buck Rodgers stuff, with corporate Mars ruling Earth? Thematically, how would one revamp cyberpunk? I think we might need spacepunk, whatever that means. I'm gonna look at Terradyne, back later.

I would definitely have all gene mods being tested on chimps first, to throw in the Planet of the Apes vibe, which is totally lacking from THS.
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Old 08-21-2013, 11:58 AM   #39
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Terradyne

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
If you imagine all potential players for such campaigns, then a large subset of those will have problems wrapping their heads around the severe transhumanism of THS, while only a small subset will have genuine problems embracing the retro-tech of Terradyne.
Not that Terradyne is actually retrotech. It's just not transhumanist.
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Old 08-21-2013, 12:43 PM   #40
Keiko
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Default Re: Terradyne

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post

[1] Actually, you can attack the premises in one legitimate way. You can attack them for being inferior, in terms of dramatic potential, to largely similar premises. "Dude, you're doing X. If you hadinstead done Y, which is almost like X but not quite, the resulting world would have been a lot better." But I very much doubt that most people are good enoguh worldbuilders to be able to see those things. Andso as a primary rule, no, you're not allowed to attack the premises, ever. spend your energy on what matters: the conclusion.
Wouldn't this be somewhat subjective anyway?
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