Penalty for using a shield with no talent

[pzmcgwire]

What is the penalty for using a shield without having the talent for it? It says no unskilled use of "this talent" is allowed, so what does that mean?

You can't even hold a shield, or a shield has no defensive benefit when holding it? If so, would it still have the DX penalty?

[Axly Suregrip]

When in your hand you get no reduction of damage from using a shield without the shield talent. And you still get the DX penalty for carrying it, as it still is bulky and gets in your way. All downside and no upside when in your hand.

But, if you sling the shield on your back, it is not being used but worn. It will protect for the rear hex only.

ITL 108, "Shields protect against physical or missile-spell attacks from the 3 front hexes (or, if slung on the back, from the back hex)."

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

When in your hand you get no reduction of damage from using a shield without the shield talent. And you still get the DX penalty for carrying it, as it still is bulky and gets in your way. All downside and no upside when in your hand.

But, if you sling the shield on your back, it is not being used but worn. It will protect for the rear hex only.

ITL 108, "Shields protect against physical or missile-spell attacks from the 3 front hexes (or, if slung on the back, from the back hex)."

It would seem that one could house rule the shield protection while slung on the back to cover the side hexes too since it covers three front hexes when wielded by someone with the shield talent. GM call territory in my opinion.

I know that ITL specifically states that there is no untalented use. I'm trying to wrap my head around why it isn't treated like untalented use of weapons. I understand that a shield is bulky and awkward but, if held in place, it's still there. I can see there being appropriate DX penalties for untalented use or even other restrictions added to that. However, a hard, NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT rule just seems weird to me.

When we were kids, we were into Frisbee battles. One could use a trash can lid as a shield whether we were proficient or not and some were better at using them than others. We also did simulated sword battles with sticks. Our parents weren't happy that that their metal trash can lids were all bent up but that's another story. LOL!

[hcobb]

Shields aren't strapped to your front. You've got this arm thing that moves them around to block attacks. A shield on your back doesn't cover the sides.

Small shield on back: stops 1 hit, costs $30, weighs 10 pounds, doesn't do anything else.

Backpack: stops 1 hit, costs $40, weighs 4 pounds, and carries stuff.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

I know that ITL specifically states that there is no untalented use. I'm trying to wrap my head around why it isn't treated like untalented use of weapons. I understand that a shield is bulky and awkward but, if held in place, it's still there. I can see there being appropriate DX penalties for untalented use or even other restrictions added to that. However, a hard, NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT rule just seems weird to me.

That seems both fair and, importantly, likely to be accepted by players as FUN. Make the player roll 4/DX (unskilled penalty) to use the shield for each attack. If they succeed, the the shield works against that attack. This preserves the privilege of automatically succeeding on using the shield by those who have learned the talent.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

That seems both fair and, importantly, likely to be accepted by players as FUN. Make the player roll 4/DX (unskilled penalty) to use the shield for each attack. If they succeed, the the shield works against that attack. This preserves the privilege of automatically succeeding on using the shield by those who have learned the talent.

That's a fair take on it. I will keep it in mind as a house rule for untalented shield use.

There is a reason why it would be important to have the shield talent and having automatic use of a shield with no penalties at all is a great reason to have the talent.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Shields aren't strapped to your front. You've got this arm thing that moves them around to block attacks. A shield on your back doesn't cover the sides.

Small shield on back: stops 1 hit, costs $30, weighs 10 pounds, doesn't do anything else.

Backpack: stops 1 hit, costs $40, weighs 4 pounds, and carries stuff.

Yes. I had that arm "thingy" in mind when I posted that I believe it to be a GM call. In fact, that is why I posted it that way because I saw it as a valid argument against giving the shield strapped to the back as covering the side hexes. I was quite aware of that difference in mounting and use and wanted to see if others would point that out too. The sophomoric attitude wasn't needed to make your valid point.

[Skarg]

A shield on the back only stops damage from the rear, not the sides.

I believe the reason why it says no untalented use, is because the author wanted Shield talent to be needed, and didn't think of any other rule that he liked and/or thought was simple enough.

Inventing an elegant house rule for it isn't that easy, since a shield's main function doesn't require a roll, and it's tricky to reduce that function much without making a small shield irrelevant.

I'd suggest an extra DX penalty (say, -2), and also some reduction to protection (e.g. require a 3/DX roll to actually protect against each attack).

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Why not follow the rule for weapon talents.
You can use a shield untalented, but you attack with 4/DX. If you also don't have weapon talent you attack with 5/DX.

Everyone should benefit from a shield from a front attack in some way. Especially against missiles.

And anyone attacking a talentless person would agree that it is slightly easier if they don't have a shield than if they do.

An alternate rule would be to allow cover for shields, when held up in front of them to protect vs. missiles on a battlefield.

But no use from it just seems strange.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

Why not follow the rule for weapon talents.
You can use a shield untalented, but you attack with 4/DX. If you also don't have weapon talent you attack with 5/DX.

Doh. Of course. Thanks Nils.