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Old 08-15-2010, 06:34 PM   #1
Johan Larson
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Default replicating action movie results, by the book

I was recently rewatching "The Terminator" for the umpteenth time, and noticed that in one scene (in TechNoir) the terminator robot suffered what looked like Knockback and a few seconds of Stun after being hit by a shotgun, but in a later scene it was completely unaffected (and didn't even bother to duck) when encountering bursts of M-16 fire at close range. That seemed a bit inconsistent.

Has anyone tried to replicate action movie fights using actual GURPS stats, to figure out whether they can be made to work?

Offhand, I would expect the mismatch to be substantial, since film writers aren't simulationists, but perhaps with a bit of luck some things could be made to line up.
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Old 08-15-2010, 07:55 PM   #2
vierasmarius
 
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Default Re: replicating action movie results, by the book

Ultra Tech pg34 has suggestions for cinematic combat against robots. One of them is to have a hit by a shotgun or heavy pistol cause knockback with additional stun effects, as the robot readjusts / checks for damage / whatever. It could make some sense, assuming that the shotgun was loaded with slugs. Otherwise... well, that's Hollywood logic for you! =P
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Old 08-15-2010, 07:57 PM   #3
Juca
 
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Default Re: replicating action movie results, by the book

Well, in Hollywood, EVERYONE knows that shotguns are big, mean weapons that send peoples flying everywhere. Rifles? Specially "punny" ones like M16s? They don't do nothing against the evil bad guy! It is always this manner.
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:49 AM   #4
sir_pudding
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Default Re: replicating action movie results, by the book

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johan Larson View Post
Has anyone tried to replicate action movie fights using actual GURPS stats, to figure out whether they can be made to work?

Offhand, I would expect the mismatch to be substantial, since film writers aren't simulationists, but perhaps with a bit of luck some things could be made to line up.
This is the entire point of GURPS Action!.
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:22 AM   #5
MattStriker
 
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Default Re: replicating action movie results, by the book

Assault Rifle: Typically Pi.
Shotgun with slugs: Pi++.

There's a trait somewhere that reduces any piercing damage received by somebody or something by one step, I forget what it's called. Let's assume the T-800, likely having been built with resistance to small arms in mind, has that. That drops the assault rifle's damage down to Pi-. Add a nice bit of HP and HT to the target (which Arnold should definitely have) and it's very unlikely to cause knockdown/stun. The shotgun on the other hand still has a +50% damage mod...
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Old 08-16-2010, 03:24 AM   #6
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Default Re: replicating action movie results, by the book

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Originally Posted by MattStriker View Post
Assault Rifle: Typically Pi.
Shotgun with slugs: Pi++.

There's a trait somewhere that reduces any piercing damage received by somebody or something by one step, I forget what it's called. Let's assume the T-800, likely having been built with resistance to small arms in mind, has that. That drops the assault rifle's damage down to Pi-. Add a nice bit of HP and HT to the target (which Arnold should definitely have) and it's very unlikely to cause knockdown/stun. The shotgun on the other hand still has a +50% damage mod...
But the shotgun was grabbed from a squad car and thus extremely unlikely to be loaded with slugs.

As far as I'm concerned, this was not physics, but aesthetics. Shotguns make big booms and should, therefore, in the kind of game where function follows coolness, cause big knockback.

GURPS has optional rules for such silliness. Check out Gun Fu.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:30 AM   #7
sgtcallistan
 
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Default Re: replicating action movie results, by the book

When real physics intervenes, expect a gun that knocks a heavy robot through a window to blow the firer of said weapon out through the opposite wall...

When hollywood rules, the result of any combat action / hit is the one that gets the story to the next event in the coolest way.

This is why Batman can dodge bullets, or in the 1960's never encounter bullets, or in the oughts, wear entirely bulletproof armour.

Reality assumptions are in full effect. Check the game group's assumptions about what should happen ;)
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Old 07-11-2022, 10:41 PM   #8
JohnDouglas
 
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Default Re: replicating action movie results, by the book

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Originally Posted by sgtcallistan View Post
When real physics intervenes, expect a gun that knocks a heavy robot through a window to blow the firer of said weapon out through the opposite wall...

When hollywood rules, the result of any combat action / hit is the one that gets the story to the next event in the coolest way.

This is why Batman can dodge bullets, or in the 1960's never encounter bullets, or in the oughts, wear entirely bulletproof armour.

Reality assumptions are in full effect. Check the game group's assumptions about what should happen ;)
I recall the first and possibly the best kickback shotgun blast with a T800 occurring at TRCH-NOIR disco tech, in the first terminator movie. I've often speculated why and how this could occur, given the presumed mass of the T-800 which is up for grabs, somewhere between 400 - 600 pounds - https://www.cbr.com/terminator-how-much-weighs/ , but another reason for the kickback could be because it's still in infiltration mode with nearly 100 percent skin cover still attached?
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Old 07-11-2022, 10:55 PM   #9
JohnDouglas
 
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Default Re: replicating action movie results, by the book

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtcallistan View Post
When real physics intervenes, expect a gun that knocks a heavy robot through a window to blow the firer of said weapon out through the opposite wall...

When hollywood rules, the result of any combat action / hit is the one that gets the story to the next event in the coolest way.

This is why Batman can dodge bullets, or in the 1960's never encounter bullets, or in the oughts, wear entirely bulletproof armour.

Reality assumptions are in full effect. Check the game group's assumptions about what should happen ;)
I recall the first and possibly the best kickback shotgun blast with a T800 occurring at TRCH-NOIR disco tech, in the first terminator movie. I've often speculated why and how this could occur, given the presumed mass of the T-800 which is up for grabs, somewhere between 400 - 600 pounds - https://www.cbr.com/terminator-how-much-weighs/ , but another reason for the kickback could be because it's still in infiltration mode with nearly 100 percent skin cover still attached?

Also raised is Newtons 3rd law of motion, stating that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" So what ever force was applied to the terminator by the shotgun blast, there has to have been an equal and opposite reactionary force applied to the person wielding the shotgun. JUst the same as if Kyle Reece had used a broom handle to force a 400-600 Lbs terminator out through a window.
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Old 07-12-2022, 12:51 PM   #10
Pursuivant
 
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Default Re: replicating action movie results, by the book

I've tried to model what I've seen on screen in writeups of various TV characters and media SF fantasy and SF species.

I've come to the conclusion that TV and action movie fights just can't be properly modeled in GURPS. Fighters are almost always too close together. Their blows are always too slow. Their moves are often not just telegraphed, but mailed via certified mail with an RSVP on the envelope. Defenders ignore obvious counterattacks. Attackers never feint and seldom use set-ups. Knockback from virtually any source is wrong. There's almost never any blood and what blood there is never as gory as real world gunshot or melee weapon wounds actually are.

GURPS Action comes closest to getting the feel of Action Movie violence right, but the one second combat turn in GURPS is still too fast for the genre unless you've got unarmed heroes who are supposed to be super fast. Actual TV or action movie violence uses two second turns with All Out Attack or All Out Defense as the only melee or unarmed combat maneuvers available for attack or defense.

The best you can do is establish that X main character can consistently defeat Y number of minions/extras with minimal damage, but struggles to beat Z boss, and can't beat A super-boss without help.

As to Terminator, you're ignoring programming. Realistically, there's no way a shotgun blast of buckshot is going to move a 400-600 lb. chunk of metal. But that chunk of metal is an infiltration robot programmed to behave like a human, up to a point. That includes flinch reflexes and possibly even pain if its skin is damaged.

Given that shotguns aren't likely to be a viable option to take down Skynet robots they're probably no longer used in 2026 (or whenever). T-400 had probably never encountered one before, so its programming said "react as if you've just gotten shot by a large bore slug thrower and you were human." Once its haptic systems sensed that the shot was actually a bunch of small caliber balls and that its skin was so damaged that it could no longer pass for human, its programming told it to act like a Terminator robot in combat mode. Thus, it feigned knockback, etc. with the first shot, then ignored the effects of the second shot.
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