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Old 06-24-2016, 08:16 AM   #31
ericbsmith
 
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Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Standard Magic wasn't built on, well, standards, it was built on whatever felt right at the time. This makes it really difficult to modify it, at least in my opinion, and what you're talking about isn't necessarily as simple as you think.
I don't see why it has to be that difficult. I think you are really overthinking and overcomplicating things, or are just being over-cautious of creating a your own spells as house rule. Simply write a spell using common sense and whatever feels right to you to gain the effect you desire.

For example:
Quote:
Instant Missiles (VH)

This is not one spell but is rather a separate spell for each missile spell, i.e. Instant Fireball or Instant Ice Dagger. It allows the caster to instantly cast an missile spell and immediately throw it from his hand. 1/2D, Max, and Acc are as per the prerequisite spell.

Cost: 2 per die (3 per die for missiles that normally cost 2 per die, such as Explosive Fireball). Maximum 2d damage; minimum cost cannot be reduced below 1 with high skill. Adjust damage as per the prerequisite missile spell type (e.g. Instant Stone Missiles do 1d+1 cr while Instant Ice Daggers do 1d-1 imp). High levels of Magery does not garner extra effect.
Time to Cast: Instant. Normally spells must take at least 1 second to cast. Instant Missiles can be cast in effectively 0 time, however they must be thrown immediately, either by taking an appropriate Attack maneuver or a "Wild Swing." They may not be held like other Missile Spells and thus they normally may not be aimed with the Aim maneuver unless the caster has other abilities that would allow it.
Prerequisite: Magery 1, Great Haste, and the appropriate missile spell.
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Last edited by ericbsmith; 06-24-2016 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:25 AM   #32
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Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

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Originally Posted by Mailanka View Post
I think you're really underestimating the complexities of "minor house rules" to a large, complex system like GURPS Magic, as opposed to using systems that are actually tailored to do exactly what the OP is asking for.
Actually the "Concentrate is no longer a distinct Maneuver and may be switched out in place of an Attack" really isn't very complex.

It does have much wider and deeper implications than simply "fixing casting speed for Missile spells", but that was also part of the plan for me.
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:45 AM   #33
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Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

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Actually the "Concentrate is no longer a distinct Maneuver and may be switched out in place of an Attack" really isn't very complex.
No. It's implications on game balance, or when used with other spells might be.

Complexity does not just arise from how difficult something is. It arises from how many unknowns you expect a given change could give rise to. The interactions of a rule-change to a large, complex system will introduce more unknowns than using a system that's well-documented (it has its own book), is grounded in the system you already know (it uses the advantage/disadvantage system) and is built to do exactly what the OP is asking for.

So, yes, making a house-rule that changes one of the fundamentals of a complex system is more complex than the inclusion of a simple, familiar system that does exactly what you want it to do.

For additional clarity, I am not coming out against these suggestions. I was challenged to explain why I would offer Sorcery when you could make a "simple house rule change" to the existing system. My answer is: It's not that simple.
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Old 06-24-2016, 09:06 AM   #34
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Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

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My answer is: It's not that simple.
Well, yes. That is true. However it's not really any more complex than the offer of "Just use RPM"... and your suggestion of using Sorcery brings it own complexities, such as learning how Alternate Abilities work, and needing to develop a laundry list of powers based spells.

There is really no simple answer to making GURPS Magic casters able to fire off Missile spells every round.



And for the record, every other round is perfectly okay. I did decide to switch back when I ran DF, since that carried other implications (such as extremely high IQs and Magery).
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Old 06-24-2016, 11:10 AM   #35
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Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Standard Magic wasn't built on, well, standards, it was built on whatever felt right at the time. This makes it really difficult to modify it.
Eh, I'd argue that it makes it really easy to modify it, since you don't have to follow any rules, just declare "it is so". Of course, the results may be wildly unbalanced, but so is Standard Magic in general.
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Old 06-24-2016, 11:20 AM   #36
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Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

In my games archers and mages are able to attack each turn.

First, note that I use a Powers-based magic system (similar to Sorcery), so the mage paid for the ability by purchasing Innate Attack.

As to the archer, that character has Heroic Archer and all the rest that allowed for attacking each turn at -6 that was used at first. But ultimately, I allowed a magical archer "power up" in which the character purchased Impaling Attack (Accessibility: requires bow and arrow, and PM (in this case magic)) and purchased the appropriate damage and range to match the bow. This allowed for the attacks without the -6 penalty so long as a Fast-Draw rolled was made to ready an arrow each turn. (As an aside, later, the person removed the accessibility requirement for the arrows, and now as her attack she just magically makes an arrow appear in the bow, thus removing even the need for a Fast-Draw roll).

Anyway, back to the issue which of whether there were issues with one attack each turn, in my games, there were no issues.

Yes, there were battles where the archer and mage dominated, slaughtering the enemy before the enemy even got close. The two melee characters just sat there with nothing to do, forming a shield wall to block return fire which never really made it to them (PCs have better skill thus can hit from further away). But then, I've also had battles in dungeons with narrow spaces in which the PC melee basically blocked the passageways and fought all the monsters while the ranged attackers stayed behind and did nothing... they didn't want to risk a friendly fire incident on their allies.

Basically, in my opinion, the game balance issue is not one of a PC archer or spellcaster's ability to fire every turn, but rather the GM's work at making each type of combat abilities more or less useful, thus giving everyone times to shine and dominate. I am for overall balance between the characters time to shine, not balance use of everyone's abilities for every encounter. If you can do that, it will work.

Note that despite my examples, I do try to limit the times when certain PC can't do anything in a fight. For example, I've had combats with a mix of ground hordes and some flying bosses. The melee take care of the hordes while the ranged go for the bosses, giving everyone plenty to do.

Oh, as a final note, I use the full Chambara (?) rules from Martial Arts in which a melee fighter can have as many attacks as he wants in a turn by simply taking a -6 penalty per extra attack. This is halved to -3 with Weapon Master (which in DF all the melee warriors have). With skills in the mid 20s, and the ability to give penalties to bring skills down to 12, my melee warriors can easily get 4 or 5 attacks a turn. When you compare that, my melee PCs definitely don't feel it unfair for the archer to shoot every turn. (Granted, you could adopt the same multiple attacks rule for archers/wizards, but the range penalties tend to limit that more than in melee).

Anyway, that's been my experience.

Last edited by Kallatari; 06-24-2016 at 11:23 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 06-24-2016, 09:07 PM   #37
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Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
Kromm also used to have some variant missile spells on his website that allowed mages to fire multiple projectiles in a single casting. So instead firing 1 fireball in a one second casting you could fire up to 12d divided between multiple missiles (so 2x6d, or 3x4d, etc). I'm not sure I'd allow that one, but it's an idea
This sounds interesting. Does anyone have a link to this?
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Old 06-24-2016, 10:33 PM   #38
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Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

For mages, I allow the Cast and Blast optional rule from http://ottgaming.grimoire.ca/Spell_Changes for missile and melee spells. (Basically, you can cast the spell as a free action once you're done Concentrating, rather than having to wait another turn.)

Missile spells mostly suck because of casting time. The one time they're pretty good is when you charge one up outside battle and carry it around. The Cast and Blast rule doesn't make that case any better, but it makes actually casting missile spells during combat more reasonable.
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Old 06-25-2016, 06:20 AM   #39
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Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

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This sounds interesting. Does anyone have a link to this?
I actually have the article archived. If Sean permits I can put it up on my webpage. I actually remember retyping it for him at one point a long time ago because he'd lost his copy from the server somehow and didn't have a backup and at the time the only copy I had was a printed copy. A couple of the spells (Mass Zombie and Sacrifice) actually worked their way into the official spells.
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Old 06-25-2016, 09:43 AM   #40
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Default Re: Archers and Mages Attacking Every Turn (DF)

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Even under RAW Archers and Mages can have as many attacks as a melee fighter. It's just a lot more expensive, often does less damage, and occasionally requires Advantages that are not be available in straight DF*.

* Compartmentalized Mind for the Caster templates.
Or the Magical Bolt power-up (DF11, p. 37), which does allow an attack each turn.
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