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Old 07-22-2021, 08:08 PM   #31
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Bang Skills

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I agree about Science! though Martial Artist! is about as insane. Bang! skills can be too broad for some games.
I don't agree about Science!

In the first place, it's intended to simulate characters in cinematic works and genres. Such characters often ARE skilled at doing research in all of the sciences. See for example Reed Richards, or Brainiac 5, or Mr. Spock, or Data. If you want to simulate cinematic sources I think you need to divide things up the way they do.

In the second place, in terms of how much characters have to do dramatically, "the science guy" (or gal) really does have only about as much to do as the engineer, or the medic, or the witch, or the heroic warrior—or less. You aren't ordinarily going to write a script where the astronomer, and the geologist, and the meteorologist, and the biologist each have an independent and essential contribution to make to the story.

And in the third place, some other games have just one science skill. World of Darkness has Science, for example, and so does Buffy; Savage Worlds has the broad category of Knowledge skills, but has Science as a single focus within Knowledge. So it's far from unheard of for a rules system to collapse all the sciences together.
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Old 07-22-2021, 08:19 PM   #32
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Default Re: Bang Skills

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Also, Medic! is far broader than just "Physician and some stuff that defaults to it." In the rules as written, it covers fully general Bioengineering, Biology (Biochemistry), Diagnosis, Electronics Operation (Medical and Scientific), Esoteric Medicine, Expert Skill (Epidemiology), Hazardous Materials (Biological), First Aid, Hypnotism, Physician, Physiology, Psychology, Surgery, and Veterinary; Administration, Diplomacy, and Law (Criminal) when dealing with medical personnel, institutions, and legal cases; Chemistry, Herb Lore, Naturalist, Pharmacy, and Poisons when dealing with drugs or toxins; Computer Operation for medical systems; Current Affairs (Science & Technology) and Research for medical research; and Forensics for autopsies.
On one hand, point taken. But on the other hand, that seems to work against the intent of having ! skills be a way of simplifying a character concept. It has 15 standard skills listed as fully covered, and a dozen conditional skills. That's a lot! Asking the player and the GM to consult such a list doesn't seem to be reducing the cognitive burden from that of playing or running a realistic medico who has a significant number of those skills, plus various defaults; if anything it increases it.

I can see listing the core skills, not as an exclusive or exhaustive list, but as a way of conveying the concept that "this is what a Physician! can do in a cinematic campaign." But I wouldn't want to put that list on a character sheet, or have the player looking it up. And for the conditional skills, I think it would be better just to give the GM license to allow rolls against Physician! to do things that are needed to enable them to cure people, or to do things where their role as a physician can be drawn on to accomplish a task, and not try to limit it to a set list, however comprehensive; indeed, the more comprehensive, the greater the cost of such an approach.

If you're going to handwave, then handwave. Or as the Basic Set says, "When in doubt, roll and shout!"
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Old 07-23-2021, 02:02 AM   #33
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Default Re: Bang Skills

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Agreed. Were I GMing a game that allowed Bang! skills, I would be far more inclined to allow a Style! skill (e.g. 'Jujutsu!' or 'La Verdadera Destreza!') than Martial Artist! or anything too close to that.
Largely agreed, but the minimax in games allowing style wildcards is to pick a style with a lot of component skills and listed techniques…
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Old 07-23-2021, 05:04 AM   #34
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Default Re: Bang Skills

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
On one hand, point taken. But on the other hand, that seems to work against the intent of having ! skills be a way of simplifying a character concept. It has 15 standard skills listed as fully covered, and a dozen conditional skills. That's a lot! Asking the player and the GM to consult such a list doesn't seem to be reducing the cognitive burden from that of playing or running a realistic medico who has a significant number of those skills, plus various defaults; if anything it increases it.

I can see listing the core skills, not as an exclusive or exhaustive list, but as a way of conveying the concept that "this is what a Physician! can do in a cinematic campaign." But I wouldn't want to put that list on a character sheet, or have the player looking it up. And for the conditional skills, I think it would be better just to give the GM license to allow rolls against Physician! to do things that are needed to enable them to cure people, or to do things where their role as a physician can be drawn on to accomplish a task, and not try to limit it to a set list, however comprehensive; indeed, the more comprehensive, the greater the cost of such an approach.

If you're going to handwave, then handwave. Or as the Basic Set says, "When in doubt, roll and shout!"
This point makes a lot of sense. I mean if you are dealing with GURPS people who've been playing long skill lists their whole lives then an illustrative list may help. But for any other group of people including newcomers, it's probably easier to just tell the players it's expansive and the GM will decide.

The GM should be generous in his or her allowances.
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Old 07-23-2021, 05:23 AM   #35
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Default Re: Bang Skills

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
[*]The ultimate template wildcard for their role. This grants wildcard familiarity and tech level, extra-broad perks and techniques, bonuses, and open-ended criticals with all facets of their trade. It also generates Wildcard Points.
Depending on genre there might be room for a fourth category of Bang! skill: Training. That allows hypercompetence with all routine skills expected for the genre, like Special Forces!, Star Fleet!, (Wo)Man in Black!, or International Superspy!
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Old 07-23-2021, 05:54 AM   #36
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Default Re: Bang Skills

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Depending on genre there might be room for a fourth category of Bang! skill: Training. That allows hypercompetence with all routine skills expected for the genre, like Special Forces!, Star Fleet!, (Wo)Man in Black!, or International Superspy!
I think actually that would take the place of BAT! In effect, it's a specialized form of BAT! customized for a particular campaign where all the PCs work for a particular agency that makes sure that its agents have the mandatory action hero skills.
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Old 07-23-2021, 09:20 AM   #37
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Default Re: Bang Skills

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How do you imagine assigning levels to these? Do the players select how many points to invest in each, as usual, or are there campaign standards or guidelines?
That would be up to the GM. If I were the GM, I'd set aside a "bucket of points" for these three skills, define three tiers, and let players assign skills to tiers. For instance, I might set aside 108 points for Attribute+2 [48], Attribute+1 [36], and Attribute+0 [24], and let players rank their three wildcards however they like.

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It's hard to see how one character could have a higher personal wildcard skill than another. Is the former "more themselves" than the latter? More self-actualized? Or just older or more experienced?
Personal wildcards represent backstory. If you have a high value in your personal wildcard at the start of the campaign, you have a longer backstory that reflects having done more in your life before the game started. That may or may not be linked to age – "I'm older and wiser!" is one explanation, but "I had a zest for life and visited 40 countries and held down 20 jobs by the time I turned 30!" is just as good.

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Similarly, what do differences in BAT! skill level represent? A greater or lesser inclination towards polymathy or dabbling, or perhaps what Traveller used to call Jack-of-all-Trades skill?
In absolute terms, it's just a number shuffle to indicate what you want to be good at. In relative terms, if it's higher than your ultimate template wildcard, it means you're one of those "Specialization is for insects" people, while if it's lower, you're a devotee of your métier.

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I don't agree about Science!

In the first place, it's intended to simulate characters in cinematic works and genres.

In the second place, in terms of how much characters have to do dramatically, "the science guy" (or gal) really does have only about as much to do as the engineer, or the medic, or the witch, or the heroic warrior—or less.

And in the third place, some other games have just one science skill.
These are all excellent points – especially the second. While I can see a GM saying, "Let's not focus on emulating fiction or other games," because I tend to say that myself, I'm a strong supporter of dramatic niches that merit equal spotlight time. And the fact is, I've yet to play in the game where all of science, or the humanities, or the fine arts, or any other broad epistemological domain wasn't actually less important to the story than practical technology, or fighting, or skullduggery, or magic.

Going beyond the cinematic, there's also a strong case to be made that in the real world, our obsessive subdivision of science is a fairly recent thing. At one point (some say "prior to Margaret Cavendish," others "prior to Isaac Newton," and still others "prior to Ben Franklin"), it was all just "natural philosophy," studied in all its facets by many individuals. Even today, there's a movement toward holistic science and anti-reductionism. Science! might be a halfway realistic skill: The problem isn't that you can't pursue it, but that it's hard to get any good at it. Which is in fact true in GURPS by dint of the steep point cost of wildcard skills.

And of course we have IQ, which for slightly more points per level makes you better at every facet of human endeavor covered by the mind . . .

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On one hand, point taken. But on the other hand, that seems to work against the intent of having ! skills be a way of simplifying a character concept. It has 15 standard skills listed as fully covered, and a dozen conditional skills. That's a lot!
The list is there for the exacting players who insist on having it, not because I believe it's the best approach. My own work, Power-Ups 7, does exactly what you recommend:
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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post

If you're going to handwave, then handwave. Or as the Basic Set says, "When in doubt, roll and shout!"
Or as I put it:
If the goal of using wildcards is to simplify character design and accelerate game play, a good start is to avoid bean-counting!

When a character is playing their part in the campaign, every skilled activity involves a roll against the most suitable attribute modified by their relative skill level with their template wildcard.
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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Depending on genre there might be room for a fourth category of Bang! skill: Training.
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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I think actually that would take the place of BAT!
That's explicitly what BAT! was meant to represent in my example. You could have different branches of service with different wildcards of this kind, of course: Intelligence!, Law Enforcement!, Military!, Security!, etc. Heck, in a genre-spanning campaign with heroes from many timelines, you could have BAT!, Delver!, Monster Hunter!, etc., and even a meta World Hopper! skill for people who identify as voyagers rather than natives. I kept my example simple on purpose, to quickly illustrate a point.
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Old 07-23-2021, 09:28 AM   #38
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Default Re: Bang Skills

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That's explicitly what BAT! was meant to represent in my example. You could have different branches of service with different wildcards of this kind, of course: Intelligence!, Law Enforcement!, Military!, Security!, etc. Heck, in a genre-spanning campaign with heroes from many timelines, you could have BAT!, Delver!, Monster Hunter!, etc., and even a meta World Hopper! skill for people who identify as voyagers rather than natives. I kept my example simple on purpose, to quickly illustrate a point.
So, for example, in a war campaign, you could have, not Soldier, but Soldier!.
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Old 07-23-2021, 10:00 AM   #39
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Default Re: Bang Skills

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Originally Posted by Phil Masters View Post
Largely agreed, but the minimax in games allowing style wildcards is to pick a style with a lot of component skills and listed techniques…
True. That gets back to 'It's up to the GMs to decide how broad is too broad for Bang! skills in their games,' I think.
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Old 07-23-2021, 11:29 AM   #40
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Default Re: Bang Skills

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So, for example, in a war campaign, you could have, not Soldier, but Soldier!.
Sure. You might have Airman!, Sailor!, and Soldier! for the three main domains of conflict, possibly treating Commando! and Spy! as separate things, and perhaps allowing for Industrialist!, Politician!, and suchlike if the GM thinks such characters will make sense as PCs on adventures.

You could even have "trees" of permitted template wildcards based on which training wildcard you chose. Of course, some might overlap. I doubt it would make the game easier or more fun if Medic! were different for people with each of these backgrounds; a medic is a medic, the differences are all in the other skill, and where, say, "being not just a medic but an army medic" comes up, the two could work together.

In that context, personal wildcards would probably be "What did you do before the war?" The GM might firm that up a little by requiring people to write a backstory that specifies place of origin, upbringing, civilian education, politics, religion, one to three jobs, and one to three hobbies.

So, a GI Joe! might cover: "A Chicago boy, brought up by a poor Irish-Catholic family on the South Side. Quit school, learned on the streets, eventually went to work as a teamster, and became a conservative union man. Likes to spend his spare time drinking beer and watching baseball. Not afraid of a scrap."

LT Easystreet! might cover: "Long Island scion of a rich WASP family. Went to Yale and did summer work for his father's law firm. When war broke out, went directly into the ASTP, where he was one of the few civilians admitted alongside active enlisted. Studied advanced engineering, and graduated to his first real job: military officer. Hobbies include punting and a cappella singing."

The latter might seem more useful in that it will often aid Easystreet's Soldier! and Engineer! skills, and probably be useful for gaining favors, but Joe's background could believable help with fisticuffs, scrounging, and a wide range of criminal activities, many of which matter to Soldier!
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