Spelljammer 5e, are you going to try it?

[Astromancer]

Unless I have botched my math ( a likely scenario) under Spelljammer rules it would take 712 years plus to travel from Earth's Star system to Alpha Centari. I hope I've made a big mistake, other than spelling.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Unless I have botched my math ( a likely scenario) under Spelljammer rules it would take 712 years plus to travel from Earth's Star system to Alpha Centari. I hope I've made a big mistake, other than spelling.

The answer must be in the transition from wildspace (100 million miles er day) to astral space (arbitrary length of time between wildspace domains).

This was clear in the 2e version when we were dealing with stretches of phlogiston between crystal spheres. In my first skim exactly where and how you transition did not jump out at me.

I also hope there's something more than "length of astral space journeys is determined by the DM". I do not gladly pay money to people who tell me just to handwaive stuff. That kind of advice is given away for free on the 'Net.

However, without that change of speeds from wildspace to astral it would take more than 700 years to go to Alpha Centauri.

[Astromancer]

I have only begun to look into this set. I can tell you now, they need something like A Spelljammer 's Star Atlas and Guide.

Basically, clearer rules on how to travel the Astral Seas, actual rules for generating star systems and their cultures, and some worked examples. The worked examples ought to be some of the other settings past and present.

What they put out is way too rules light.

In the main book detailing the rules of Spelljammer as a setting, pages 26 to 57 are taken up with ship stats. The format is a small amount of text on one page and a picture and deck map on the other.

Thirty-two pages for sixteen ships, and thirty-two pages for everything else.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The answer must be in the transition from wildspace (100 million miles er day) to astral space (arbitrary length of time between wildspace domains).

This was clear in the 2e version when we were dealing with stretches of phlogiston between crystal spheres. In my first skim exactly where and how you transition did not jump out at me.

If you do find how the transition works, would you mind summarizing it here? From what I can tell, the elimination of crystal sphere/phlogiston is the major change (excluding minor tweaks) between 5E and 2E, so I'm curious how it works.

(Obviously, encounters for the Astral Plane will be different than in the Phlogiston as well, but I have a good grasp of how D&D envisions the astral already).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

If you do find how the transition works, would you mind summarizing it here? From what I can tell, the elimination of crystal sphere/phlogiston is the major change (excluding minor tweaks) between 5E and 2E, so I'm curious how it works.

(Obviously, encounters for the Astral Plane will be different than in the Phlogiston as well, but I have a good grasp of how D&D envisions the astral already).

I was trying to wait until I'd finished my cover-to-cover to do more comentary. I have just the adventure itself to go. Alledgedly the two spheres "detailed" (I use that word sparingly for 5e) are the worked examples Astromancer wanted.


Perhaps as big as the Phlogiston/Astral Space swap is the change in Helms. In te new version making your own Helm takes a 5th leel spell and a not very specific 5000 gp material componenet. The Helm created appears to be permanent and while it still requires a spellcaster it doesn't seem to drain their magic powers.

Also, tactical speed for each ship class is listed in its' stat block and does not vary depending on who's at the Helm.

Also there are only 2 types of common sip's weapons (the Giff Bombard ship is an exception)

[Fred Brackin]

I completed my cover-to-cover reading last night and I was probably right to put "scare quotes"around "detailed".

As an example there are plenty of npcs who get names but none of them get individual stats. Every one of them is bog standard from the MM or the monster book in this set.

The 2 solar systems (only one of them doesn't have a sun) are small in thier numbers of bodies and illustrated but not what I'd called detailed.

No joy on more mechnical detail of spelljamming. It should probably take days to get to the borders of wildspace but in the adventure if their ship can't jump into astral space like the Millenium Falcon going into hyperspace everyone would die.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No joy on more mechnical detail of spelljamming. It should probably take days to get to the borders of wildspace but in the adventure if their ship can't jump into astral space like the Millenium Falcon going into hyperspace everyone would die.

So, baring instructions to the contrary, it sounds like - based on the adventure requirements - the helm lets you jump to the Astral at any point.

Do the rules confirm there even is a "border of wild space" (in 2E, it was obviously the crystal sphere, but those are gone now)? Are the "spheres" bubbles within the Astral? Or is wildspace as vast as our own space in our universe, and you don't bother travelling out beyond a system because the time required to get to another system makes it pointless (compared to jumping to Astral then back somewhere else).

In 4E (I know, completely different ruleset), the spelljamming helm was a focus that allowed for the Plane Shift ritual that brought the entire ship and everything on it along. But in 4E, that Plane Shift ritual wasn't limited to the astral sea, you could shift to any specific location you have previously visited on another plane, appearing up to 100 miles off on a bad ritual roll. While not specifically mentioned in 4E, if you view each world/setting as a different world in the same unique Material Plane, since you can't teleport to a different spot on the same plane directly, you would use the spelljamming helm to first go to the Astral, then shift back to a different location on the Material Plane (i.e., another sphere). So I guess it sort of matches what you've said so far. But there was no time delay or minimum distance to travel in 4E - just the time required to do two rituals. Also, I'm just not sure how you would find "new spheres" this way if you can only travel to places you've already been... guess you had to travel the Astral Sea until you found a random portal/colored veil.

But with that 4E logic, it was probably faster to also jump to the astral and then jump back to another planet in the same system than to travel between planets via wildspace. You in fact don't even have to enter wildspace and could do so from the surface of a planet.

Anyway, does this sound like how 5E sort of works, presumably replacing the ritual with the innate magic of the helm?


Regardless, I'm finding a lot of bad reviews on the net so far, and if you and Astromancer are basically confirming it doesn't give all that much, odds are I likely won't be purchasing the 5E version.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

S

Do the rules confirm there even is a "border of wild space" (in 2E, it was obviously the crystal sphere, but those are gone now)? n.

Judging by what is more like fluff text (on p.4) than rules there's a transition zone between Wildspace and the Astral and you just sail through. No crystal sphere. Except in one of the systems in the adventure and that's broken into indestructible pieces now.

Anyway, p.4 puts this transition zone beyond the edges of the solar ssystem and it's hundreds of millions of miles in both example systems. In the 2e version the boundary was twice as far as the outermost edge of the farthest planets (and nothing was said of Kuiper belts or Oort clouds). Earth's ssytem might have shrunk in the intervening years from 2x Pluto's 50 AU to 2x Neptune's 30 AU.

If i'm having to waive my hands and make stuff up the zone is going to be just beyond Neptune rather than 2x. That still a 30 day trip.

As my brain gets time and shifts into patch mode (and i once patched a spelljammer advnture that had inflatable planets) I am envisioning something like "There is an explosion! The biggest one you've ever seen or will see but since it's a magical explosion it's more like an irresistable tidal wave of Elemental Fire than a burst of hard radiation. At full jamming speed you can keep ahead of it."

Full jamming speed is still 1157 miles per second so maybe my explanation is absolutely hopeless. You'd still have to stay ahead of the explosion for days and the new rules don't seem to consider any need for multiple shifts of spellcasters to sit on the helm.

No hint of anything like your 4e mechanics

You may be getting the idea that the whole thing is rules light even by 5e standards and it's absolute rules meringue. Maybe even rules aerogel.

However, I have told my group that I would be able to run it and I believe that to be true..

Feel free to ask more questions.

[Astromancer]

As much as I prefer the idea of "the helm let's you jump to the Astral plane at any time." it simply can't work that way. Spelljamming ships can run out of good air. There are spells to restore air quality. None of which makes sense if you can just jump to the Astral Plane at anytime and refresh your air supply.

There has to be a point of transition between wildspace and astral space.

Without that limitation, why worry about air?

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

There has to be a point of transition between wildspace and astral space.

Without that limitation, why worry about air?

I agree. It is an important detail because the ramifications are (should be) important... like running out of air.

Everything I read about 5E Spelljammer in the reviews basically says that there are no details and it's up to the DM to hand-waive them...

• How far do you have to go? Up to you.
  
• How does one transition between the Material and Astral? up to you.
  
• How does ship combat work? up to you (but why not have your PC board the ships instead)
  
• How does food storage work and how much space does it take? Doesn't matter.
  
• Does ship size and number of crew/passengers affect how long your air lasts? that's not important.
  
• etc.

(caveat: going by what I read in reviews, not the actual product which I don't have)

Since all I wanted from the 5E Spelljammer was the answer to those type of questions so that I could adapt it to GURPS, it effectively defeats the purpose of me ever getting the 5E version. You had all of that information and more in Spelljammers 2E, and frankly, I'd probably use that for the "setting information" if I were to play again.

For example, even if I did decide to use the 5E Astral instead of the 2E Phlogiston/Crystal Spheres, I'd probably use the same 2x furthest planet distance before you could shift away. And to go from the Astral to the Material, you'd have to be at a "veil/portal" (or whatever it might be called now in 5E) and I'd have them look like giant spherical crystals....

I had a great 2E Spelljammer campaign long ago (using 2E rules at the time since I hadn't discovered GURPS back then) and we had a great time. In fact, it was the setting that let us do a "crossover" scenario where the characters of our Forgotten Realms campaign met the characters of our Mystara campaign (with the trope of fighting each other in misunderstanding at first until they realizes they were both teams of heroes). So Spelljammers will always be something good to me. And it's a setting I do recommend to anyone who hasn't tried it. However, it just sounds like this particular 5E rulebook isn't really needed. Lost opportunity for D&D, at least from my point of view.


(Hmm... am I turning into one of those people who simply doesn't like things because they aren't the way they used to be... nah....)