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Old 09-21-2018, 12:51 PM   #11
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
In all seriousness, what problem do you think this new rule is trying to solve?

The only "problem" I can think of that this addresses is, that high-IQ wizards are not effective in melee combat.

But do we really *need* high-IQ wizards to be more effective melee fighters?

The whole TFT system is about balances and tradeoffs. The proposed ITL staff mana rules make ST something of a dump stat for wizards, and if anything, IQ-based to hit rolls reduce rather than increase the importance of wizard DX.
I agree except for the "make ST something of a dump stat for wizards". I'd rather have the wizard dumping ST into his staff than himself.
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:00 PM   #12
Shadekeep
 
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Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

I can understand, somewhat, the intent of the rule in Wizard arena skirmishes. But in the broader ITL world it doesn't follow on logically from weapon handling rules in general. I agree with the sentiment that physical attacks should be predicated on DX, and spells potentially on IQ (or at least accrue to-hit bonuses when the caster's IQ is much higher than the spell's requirement).

No disrespect intended, but with the way the rule is defined, Stephen Hawking would have been the next Sauron.
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:02 PM   #13
Skarg
 
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Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Dedicated rapier fighter shield bashes the Wizard.

Game over.
Slams and anything involving a DX roll is a flaw in such a munckin's plan, but the point is that the mechanic is way off in terms of the usual balance.

And even in a literal munchkin duel, a shield rush is not game over. Assuming a hit (74% for the armored rapier guy example), even a ST 8 will resist a shield rush about 1/4 of the time (total chance of success, about 55%). 45% chance of just wasting a turn. Even if he falls down, his foe spent a turn shield-rushing. He can follow up with a +4 attack (thanks for getting that right in the new rules, Steve), but a 1d hit against armor 4 is hardly fatal, the staff guy stands up, and we're back where we were before.

A better killer-anti-tactic would be to get the staff user in HTH, where he can't use his staff. At that point, the cold iron penalty makes a difference since HTH doesn't work as well against people in plate (though the Pinning optional rule would do the trick). But having to tackle staff munchkins to take them out still indicates a balance problem to me. if HTH is the way to deal with a wizard using a staff... I'm still left thinking it indicates that IQ-to-hit is overbalanced.

It looks like a great design for the party's munchkin / talent-knower character:

IQ 16 (non-wizard)
Staff of Power - 3
Master Physicker - 4
Strategist - 3
whatever else the party wants (master bard, alchemist, master naturalist, detect traps,etc)

Who now not only is well-protected by armor, but also is a strong fighter with a clumsiness problem.

Compare to the "honest" standard 32-point Master Physicker:

ST 9
DX 9
IQ 14
Master Physicker

Probably pretty useless as a fighter.
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:03 PM   #14
platimus
 
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Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

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Originally Posted by Shadekeep View Post
No disrespect intended, but with the way the rule is defined, Stephen Hawking would have been the next Sauron.
Would have been? Are you so certain the One Wheelchair has been destroyed? LOL
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:06 PM   #15
Shadekeep
 
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Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Would have been? Are you so certain the One Wheelchair has been destroyed? LOL
If it hasn't, let me be the first to say that I am ready and willing to be remade into a Science Nazgūl. ^_^
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:51 PM   #16
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

I'm not sure I'm that bothered about the play balance side of this. We are talking about providing wizards with a mechanism for doling out a high-probability attack that does 1d damage to an adjacent foe. Wading into a scrum of fighters with that sort of firepower is a good way to get yourself murdered. My objection is sufficiently abstract you might almost call it aesthetic: I just don't like the notion of folding in a unique rule for something that doesn't seem very exceptional to me. Spell casting is resolved as a roll vs. DX. Attacking people, close or far away, with mundane or magical weapons, is resolved as a roll vs. DX. I don't see why attacking someone with staff should be an exception.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:29 PM   #17
pyratejohn
 
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Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

It may be. Of course, I've been eyeing it up as a way to kill my friend's wizard the next time we play. Maybe using a ST 8 DX 10 IQ 14 wizard with a staff. Dodge first turn. Blur second turn. Turn 3 run up and smash him with the staff until he is dead.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:29 PM   #18
platimus
 
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Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I'm not sure I'm that bothered about the play balance side of this. We are talking about providing wizards with a mechanism for doling out a high-probability attack that does 1d damage to an adjacent foe. Wading into a scrum of fighters with that sort of firepower is a good way to get yourself murdered. My objection is sufficiently abstract you might almost call it aesthetic: I just don't like the notion of folding in a unique rule for something that doesn't seem very exceptional to me. Spell casting is resolved as a roll vs. DX. Attacking people, close or far away, with mundane or magical weapons, is resolved as a roll vs. DX. I don't see why attacking someone with staff should be an exception.
The wizard can use ST stored in the staff for an additional die of damage.
Quote:
Staff strike: If a weapon-type staff contains mana, a wizard who hits with it may spend a single point of mana to do one extra die of damage with the staff. This attack is rolled separately and is not stopped by armor!
However, I pretty much agree with your sentiments.

Last edited by platimus; 09-21-2018 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:59 PM   #19
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
The wizard can use ST stored in the staff for an additional die of damage.

However, I pretty much agree with your sentiments.
I didn't see that in the Staff spell description or the Wizard rule book. Are you thinking of something from SJ's forum postings or the web updates that were happening back in August?
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:59 PM   #20
platimus
 
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Default Re: New Staff to-hit roll using IQ! (serious balance problem, no?)

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I didn't see that in the Staff spell description or the Wizard rule book. Are you thinking of something from SJ's forum postings or the web updates that were happening back in August?
This:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...&postcount=135

Maybe I'm confused or behind-the-times or something.
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