Attributes minus Skills

[dataweaver]

I've been toying with the idea of decoupling skills from attributes, and relying more heavily on Talents to represent being especially good at a set of thematically related skills. If I do this, though, what's left for attributes to do? Take it as a given that the pricing of DX and IQ changes drastically under this approach; but without skills, how much should the pricing drop? More generally, what do each of the Attributes do once you remove Skills from the picture?

[Maz]

ST is unchanged as no skills require it.

DX is still used on rare occasions. for instance to draw a weapon while being grappled or to avoid falling on a missed kick and other stuff like that. It also boosts Basic speed.

IQ is mostly used by some advantages, such as Empathy, Healing and Telepathy. But also in some instances such as recovering from mental stun. I often use it to test against to remind the player of something the PC might remember - I know other GM's do the same. It also boost Per and Will.

Per and Will are use a lot on their own. Especially by the type of GM who likes to only give out detailed information about situations on successful Per-checks.

HT is very powerful on its own and would not have to be changed.



If it was me:
I would let ST and HT stand as is.
I would remove IQ completely and let Per and Will stay at 5 pts/lvl. And let them stand-in in place of IQ were appropriate. And let advantages that require IQ instead be skill-based.
I would reduce DX to 10 pts. And let it still boost Basic speed. And still use DX for the odd balancing checks or quickness checks.



One issue with decoupling Skill from attributes is you won't be able to make "skill-rolls bases on other attributes". So you won't be able to differentiate between a ST-based climb (pull-up) and a DX-based Climb. Or an IQ-based or DX-based lockpicking. But that's probably not a problem.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

I've been toying with the idea of decoupling skills from attributes, and relying more heavily on Talents to represent being especially good at a set of thematically related skills. If I do this, though, what's left for attributes to do?

For DX and IQ, probably nothing? There are some things those attributes are used for that aren't skill checks, but very few that couldn't be skill checks, and it would be weird if picking up a skill suddenly made you worse at something.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Maz

DX is still used on rare occasions. for instance to draw a weapon while being grappled or to avoid falling on a missed kick and other stuff like that. It also boosts Basic speed.

I remember Basic Speed cost breaks down into Basic Move + Enhanced Dodge which is why since "who goes first" was basically 0-cost, they allow that to be bought as a Perk.

[ErhnamDJ]

I came up with house rules for this a while back. They're on my blog.

Attributes Without Skills

Skill Pricing

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Plane

I remember Basic Speed cost breaks down into Basic Move + Enhanced Dodge which is why since "who goes first" was basically 0-cost, they allow that to be bought as a Perk.

I am not sure what you are trying to say.

But, no, Basic speed does not break down into Basic Move + Enhanced dodge. Basic move is based on Basic speed. And dodge is also based on Basic Speed (+3). Enhanced dodge only affects dodge, not speed or move.
And "who goes first" is again also based on basic speed, with DX only playing a direct role if basic speed (including the fractions) is equal.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Maz

I am not sure what you are trying to say.

But, no, Basic speed does not break down into Basic Move + Enhanced dodge.

I believe Plane's point (which is one that's been made by Kromm before as well), is that the game mechanical effects of buying up a full +1.00 of Basic Speed (for 20 points) is to gain +1 to Dodge, +1 to Basic Move, and to go before anyone with lesser Basic Speed in combat. +1 to Basic Move on its own costs 5 points, and +1 to Dodge is 15 points, via Enhanced Dodge. Therefore, after subtracting the costs of Move and Dodge, the value of "going first in combat" is effectively 0. Hence, the suggestion that "goes first in a fight", without gaining any bonus to moving or dodging, is probably just a perk.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by dataweaver

I've been toying with the idea of decoupling skills from attributes, and relying more heavily on Talents to represent being especially good at a set of thematically related skills.

I had that discussion about three years ago, this thread is the result:

Attributes That Don't Apply To Skills - How Much Would You Charge?


I ended up deciding that pricewise ST and HT remain unchanged, DX drops to 10 points per level, and IQ to 2.