Quick Fix For Traditional Magic System

[Otaku]

I am one of those players that believes the traditional GURPS Magic System has some issues; specifically I just find the "Spells as Skills" model problematic when you try to have it live up to the "Generic Universal" part of the system; unless the setting is so anti-magic to make it overpriced, its probably going to be drastically under-priced compared to (for example) a similar capacity provided via being a Super.

A quick fix I was contemplating for those that want to largely preserve the traditional Magic system was requiring the Magery always be purchased as One College Only, but it isn't exclusive; if you invest the points you can effectively get a full level of "universal" Magery, it will just cost a lot more. I was debating breaking things further down into sub-colleges (for a bigger discount) or just lowering the cost of Single College Magery alongside this rule, so that steady growth is pretty attainable. Something I recently realized was that I find it too easy to get into the strange position where I expect more of a Mage than I should given his/her/its point total; like how even at 100 or 150 points its too easy to fixate on Magery 3 and trying to somehow have a dozen low cost, useful Spells.

I won't be able to test this for quite some time and it seems awfully familiar. Has anyone else done this? Am I badly remembering an alternate rule? Is it just so obvious that the only reason I don't know where it is from is because of how little I've read of 4e? I know when I first began contemplating it, I was inspired by the alternate rules for Psionics in 3e.

[Nereidalbel]

RPM is much more flexible than Standard Magic. To fix "spells as skills" would likely require a full rewrite of most spells.

And the discount value for One College Only makes buying Magery 1 for all colleges insanely expensive for what you get.

[Ulzgoroth]

Spells, in the GURPS Magic system, are best viewed as technology. They're balanced with other powers the same way as Guns or other technological skills are. Which is to say not really except in that other people can use them too.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

RPM is much more flexible than Standard Magic. To fix "spells as skills" would likely require a full rewrite of most spells.

And the discount value for One College Only makes buying Magery 1 for all colleges insanely expensive for what you get.

I think he's TRYING to make it more expensive. And in general, its not the spells as written that are the problem, its that improving

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Spells, in the GURPS Magic system, are best viewed as technology. They're balanced with other powers the same way as Guns or other technological skills are. Which is to say not really except in that other people can use them too.

Its a great way of looking at it, except for the part where you need magery 0 to use it and it tends to be less common rather than more.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Its a great way of looking at it, except for the part where you need magery 0 to use it and it tends to be less common rather than more.

Only in normal or lower mana.

And really most technology requires particular traits to use, somewhat obscured by the most common requirements being included in the GURPS baseline.

[Gnome]

I've found that spells-as-skills are no more problematic than mundane skills, provided that they're just as common in the world--and if they're not, Magery should come with Unusual Background. Think about the power you get from having Guns (Rifle) skill; it's easily comparable to any spell, even the deadliest. We don't think of it that way because we imagine that almost anyone could have a gun. But almost anyone can have a spell too, or if not, it's a rare magic setting where UB would be appropriate for mages.
As for limiting generalist mages, I'm whole-heartedly with you there, and I think forcing PCs to be practitioners of a style is one nice solution. Another is to require some kind of an entry fee into additional colleges.
In a highly successful game of mine, each college had a required mundane skill associated with it. It made thematic sense (shouldn't a Body Control mage know something about physiology?) and it also encouraged specialization, which seems to be what you're after in restricting mages to One-College Magery. We had a lot of characters with Magery, but each one specialized in certain areas, and no one character could handle every situation on his own. (I also banned certain "problem" spells, namely Invisibility, Great Haste, Lockmaster, Seeker, and Delay).

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I've found that spells-as-skills are no more problematic than mundane skills, provided that they're just as common in the world--and if they're not, Magery should come with Unusual Background.

As stated, that would not be the case most of the time; if something doesn't work well when being treated as a generic, universal part of the game, it might have an issue. Slapping on an Unusual Background cost is an option, but it can be very confusing for players to understand that what makes something "rare" is its point cost, not its true rarity. It isn't really that great a solution anyway; like I tried to explain in my first paragraph, you shouldn't have to put your thumb on the scale to achieve balance.

Originally Posted by Gnome

Think about the power you get from having Guns (Rifle) skill; it's easily comparable to any spell, even the deadliest.

That requires you fixate on material components; if you don't then your statement is quite false: knowing how to use a firearm well is not the same as being able whip one out of hammer space. My experience with 4e is almost non-existent, so let me ask: did I misunderstand talents? Is there a Firearms talent that causes bullets to do more damage?

For spells like Fireball, Magery increases how quickly and how large you can build up a fireball, yes? Then there are all the spells that do not require an Innate Attack roll to use... oh and the fact that a rifle is a rifle, not a Variable Usage Tool. ;)

So... shall I take that as "No, I don't like this idea and if it was suggested elsewhere, I don't know where."?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Otaku

As stated, that would not be the case most of the time; if something doesn't work well when being treated as a generic, universal part of the game, it might have an issue. Slapping on an Unusual Background cost is an option, but it can be very confusing for players to understand that what makes something "rare" is its point cost, not its true rarity. It isn't really that great a solution anyway; like I tried to explain in my first paragraph, you shouldn't have to put your thumb on the scale to achieve balance.

...How is what you're proposing to do not putting your thumb on the scale? If you're talking about point balance, adjusting it means changing prices.

Originally Posted by Otaku

That requires you fixate on material components; if you don't then your statement is quite false: knowing how to use a firearm well is not the same as being able whip one out of hammer space.

Material components just aren't all that big a deal. Is not requiring a few pounds of hardware on hand really the thing that worries you about magic? (If so, you could always require Magery to be Gadget based...)

Originally Posted by Otaku

My experience with 4e is almost non-existent, so let me ask: did I misunderstand talents? Is there a Firearms talent that causes bullets to do more damage?

No, there is not.

Originally Posted by Otaku

For spells like Fireball, Magery increases how quickly and how large you can build up a fireball, yes?

Yes, but that's not very important. Damaging missile spells are usually not very good, and certainly don't compare favorably to firearms!

Originally Posted by Otaku

Then there are all the spells that do not require an Innate Attack roll to use... oh and the fact that a rifle is a rifle, not a Variable Usage Tool. ;)

A spell is not a Variable Usage Tool either. Any given spell does a quite narrow range of things, and you need a whole different spell skill if you want to do something else.

(Path/Book magic gives you rather more of a Variable Usage Tool, though.)

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Otaku

That requires you fixate on material components; if you don't then your statement is quite false: knowing how to use a firearm well is not the same as being able whip one out of hammer space.

Material components are not that significant a drawback; in most games I've played the GM allows you some starting equipment. Furthermore, mana may as well be a material component, in that the GM can as easily take it away as he can your gun, and it comes with natural limitations (FP/time cost, prerequisites, anti-magic, etc.).

My experience with 4e is almost non-existent, so let me ask: did I misunderstand talents? Is there a Firearms talent that causes bullets to do more damage?

If you have higher skill, you can hit more consistently from further away and in nastier locations, thus doing more damage. The right skills at good levels in GURPS are ridiculously powerful. Attributes and Talents can help you get many of these powerful skills at high levels.
Spells are a kind of skill for manipulating mana. Mana exists in many genres (there's the universal part), and the magic system supports many play styles (there's the generic part).

So... shall I take that as "No, I don't like this idea and if it was suggested elsewhere, I don't know where."?

I wasn't hating on the idea of requiring One-College Magery. You just started by questioning the concept of spells as skills, so I felt the need to put in my $0.02. Requiring One-College Magery will encourage PCs to specialize. Which is why I offered my own twist on encouraging PCs to specialize.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Only in normal or lower mana.

And really most technology requires particular traits to use, somewhat obscured by the most common requirements being included in the GURPS baseline.

Yes, using a riffle requires hands and eyes. A character who can't use a riffle is going to have a massive disad like 'Blindness' or 'No Fine Manipulators', worth around 50 points each. lesser versions are around, but they still allow the use of riffles

indeed. In normal mana, mundanes can cast spells. I don't see that happening in many games though. Honestly, I often play with magery as a learnable advantage instead of using 'high' mana levels.

That said, you can do a lot by having a firm idea of what you want in your world, what you don't, and enforcing a style. 'Only in basic' by default is a good call, and make them justify the other stuff. When you say 'here's the book, just build something' you get into trouble. But thats true of Ultra Tech as well, and even of powers if the GM isn't paying attention.