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Old 03-25-2014, 09:52 AM   #11
Dwarf99
 
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Default Re: Magery and IQ a take on decoupling IQ from spells

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Originally Posted by mehrkat View Post
Change all the spell references that magery improves to use the same chart so for instance a spell that lets you pull magery dice in damage each turn would be 17 - 14 dice per turn and if it requires magery 3 to be able to cast it requires magery + IQ = 17.
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Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
1 Magery is better than 1IQ for casting.
Frex, fireball is limited by magery, the dumb firemage will throw 21d fireballs, while the sage will throw 3d.
Well, now I'm glad I'm not the only one to miss that tweak.
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Old 03-25-2014, 11:12 AM   #12
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Default Re: Magery and IQ a take on decoupling IQ from spells

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The stupid, arrogant, thoughtless wizard who doesn't understand the power he is throwing around but is just as powerful as the sage who does is a respectable trope and character concept. That he will be better at blowing stuff up is acceptable.
The other thread that looked at this was trying to make the high IQ mage less essential but used what I felt was punishing the hi IQ mage by making him buy both IQ and Magery separately. Its a fair way to do it but I wanted to shift to a different concept and see what people thought.

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Of course, the high IQ mage will have a much different bag of tricks to bring to the table, and yes, they will be tricks, not weapons.
That was precisely my point. The Smart wizard would also get all the other advantages of IQ while the not so smart wizard would be able put that focus elsewhere. It just allows for a lot more flexible template of wizard.

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I support the IQ+M cap (and I would probably be a jerk at but it at 16 or 15).
Honestly I set it where I did without any testing its just the other thread sort of inspired me. I wanted a way to mirror what I've seen as the "typical" starting point.
I wanted to make the equivalent of magery 3 possible but painful. If you set the cap lower you would need to tweak the -14 or accept that magery 2 or magery 1 as the new norm.

I was trying to look for that spot and see what people thought of the general concept then tweak to find the right balance. I'm pretty likely to use it in my next game with magery to try it out.
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Old 03-25-2014, 11:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: Magery and IQ a take on decoupling IQ from spells

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Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
1 Magery is better than 1IQ for casting.
Frex, fireball is limited by magery, the dumb firemage will throw 21d fireballs, while the sage will throw 3d.
Not for long.... unless they have a tremendous energy pool to pull from.

Using Magery as a prereq for more powerful spells is just a levels Unusual Background. One that become for useful if you have a lot of spells that scale up.

Using Magery to add to skill makes it a talent. There's really no reason why you shouldn't treat it like other talents.

I played a game where it was a the size of your mana pool instead (Magery squared, recovers Magery levels per day). That may wizardry a bit more spashy and even provided higher energy levels for the occasional cool spell while forcing conservation due to recharge time. Combined with reduction for casting, skilled wizards can cast smaller spells efficiently while powerful wizards can do flashy things (but not as often). A skilled wizard with a large pool could do both.

To clarify:
Talent: Spellcraft (adds to spell skils)
Advantage: Mage Power (Level squared is your casting energy pool, recharges equal to your level every day)
Spells: basically normal, with reductions skill (including talent).
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Old 03-25-2014, 12:37 PM   #14
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Default Re: Magery and IQ a take on decoupling IQ from spells

One big question would be would this be a hard lifetime cap or a softer starting cap? Would Frex the Firemage who began the campaign with IQ 10 Magery 7 ever be able to raise eitehr his magery or his IQ during the course of the game? If he can't I suspect the sweet spot for players would be IQ 14 Magery 3 (as that is the highest level of magery required to cast a spell).

Secondly this would seem to to create the campaign effect of a powerful intellect actively inhibitting Magical power (magery levels), since they are somewhat in competition with each other. Expect as a camapaign switch for children to have higher levels of Magery than adults (as they have not grown into their IQ yet), and magic overall being considered more of a trade skill rather than an academic art.
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:02 PM   #15
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Default Re: Magery and IQ a take on decoupling IQ from spells

Honestly most of the games I run tend to have soft limits. Basically character creation and limits that gradually improve as the game advances.

So if you played a wizard with IQ 12 and Magery 2 then as the game progresses you could get magery 3 for 10 points and even switch magery 3 to a point of IQ instead (paying the 10 point difference) as long as it felt right in the advancement of the game.

As for the 17 max as the game switched to high powered it would be perfectly reasonable to change the max to 18 as the game progresses. But I tend to do epic games and that style flows well with the epic story.
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:44 PM   #16
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Default Re: Magery and IQ a take on decoupling IQ from spells

Most hard limits create characters who are at this limit.
Limit magery at 3? every wizard has magery 3.
Limit skill at 20? every player has skill 20.
Limit disads on -50? everyone has -50.
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:35 PM   #17
ericthered
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Default Re: Magery and IQ a take on decoupling IQ from spells

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Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Most hard limits create characters who are at this limit.
Limit magery at 3? every wizard has magery 3.
Limit skill at 20? every player has skill 20.
Limit disads on -50? everyone has -50.
Agreed. I like to give soft limits built into the setting. It makes for a lot less munchkinry and gets the players to help me do my job: "Its not that I have a rule against IQ 14, Its just that I'm not sure why a genius like you is casting fireballs when you should be advising kings, making a fortune as a merchant, or inventing new spells."

That said, the basic idea of allowing magery and IQ to stack but not capping magery is a great one. It allows a mage to be a mage, and a sage to be a sage.
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Old 03-25-2014, 03:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Magery and IQ a take on decoupling IQ from spells

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Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Limit magery at 3? every wizard has magery 3.
Limit skill at 20? every player has skill 20.
Limit disads on -50? everyone has -50.
This depends. Magery 3 is really useful if you have Magery at all, and it's fairly easy to find -50 worth of disadvantages that you can live with, for most character concepts.

The usefulness of Skill 20 is much more dependent on the campaign. For the main melee weapon skill in DF-like campaigns, sure. Core skill in ritual magic systems that use one, definitely. For other kinds of campaign ... doesn't happen much IME. Now, if you limit skills to 15 then sure, practically everyone will have a few skills at the limit. But 20 isn't a very restrictive cap.
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:32 AM   #19
Peter Knutsen
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Default Re: Magery and IQ a take on decoupling IQ from spells

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Thoughts?
Can you please explain your idea to me while using words such as "world", "genetics", "birth" and "effects of culture"?
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:07 AM   #20
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Default Re: Magery and IQ a take on decoupling IQ from spells

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Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
Can you please explain your idea to me while using words such as "world", "genetics", "birth" and "effects of culture"?
Sorry Peter I'm not exactly sure what you are asking but I'll try. I'm likely to use it as the default rule when I use standard magic. I'll make up a world.

In the world of Azan magic is a force much as gravity, attraction, kinetic force etc. This force responds to focused force of mind and uses this force of mind of both self and the world consciousness to form the necessary patterns that allow effects to occur. If the proper rituals to the world consciousness and the ideas of the caster are followed it takes and expands on the energy from the caster to create specific effects. There are thousands of proper spells and proper effect. The more skilled you are at focusing your mind adequately in a specific effect (spell) the more of the world consciousness rules you can skip and still produce the desired effect.

Unfortunately to access the force one must have a connection to it. (Magery zero). The more powerful the force of mind (IQ) of the caster then the easier it is to access this force. Also some have a specific talent for this force of mind (Magery). Some spells are so difficult that you must have a certain force of mind (though the Magery talent counts) in order to be able to access this spell. Some spells are more effective if you have a certain force of mind.

Not only can one train in a specific effect (spell) but one can also the Force of mind can be learned and trained as can the talent though some have a very powerful mind to begin with and some have a very powerful talent to begin with.

Honestly I don't see it having a very specific effect on culture as this is easily as varied a rule set as Magery and that is most effected by the commonality of magery etc. I think allowing someone to improve the talent does alter the world essentially it makes old masters very powerful.

The limit to the magery + IQ level is simply a character limitation so that we have powerful but not uberpowerful characters. Its like any other character limits.

I think that answers your questions. Though if I missed your question let me know what I missed.
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Last edited by mehrkat; 03-26-2014 at 08:36 AM. Reason: tweaked a few minor things.
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