[Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Otaku

I'll have to get back to you on that, but for the sake of clarity do you mean for GURPS or for a setting like the typical Marvel Universe?

In this case, I'm talking GURPS, from the mechanics end of things.

Some of that may be a tiered approach to Cosmic; you have what you might think of as a "True" Cosmic at the top, with other power modifiers below it. If the setting call for it, you may even have the somewhat confusing task of renaming a few because Cosmic Being A really is at the top with nothing that outdoes it, while Cosmic Being B can only be outdone by A, etc. down the line.

Even without getting fancy like that though, Cosmic can beat Cosmic, so if (for example) Odin was imprisoned and rendered helpless by magic handcuffs, were said handcuffs built as a Gadget they would have Cosmic on their nullifying effect, to cancel out the protective benefits of Cosmic on Odin's traits.

Speaking of which (and this begins to answer some of what Phantasm asked after I brought it up), I probably wouldn't have "full" Cosmic for guys like Zeus. This is where the tiers really ought to come in. Based on what we know of the Marvel Universe, whomever has the Infinity Gauntlet (and the individual gems themselves, perhaps) will gain traits with the "true" Cosmic modifier. From there tick things off at 5 or 10% points until you get to the base level of traits. Try to come up with appropriate terms because you'll want to be able to mix and match as various other modifiers should probably apply.

I am wondering if certain groups like Asgardians should have their own Power Modifier. Maybe that is just because I am half asleep, though; it just seems helpful for them to have a narrower focus but I think I am too tired to make that coherent. Sorry. ^^'

No problems! I've been known to carry on coherent intelligent conversations while asleep (at least when I was younger my older sister accused me of such), but that spot between fully-asleep and wide awake makes anyone less coherent than they should be. :)

Right now, the only Asgardian to have a power modifier on any innate racial abilities - as opposed to abilities gained in other manners - is Thrud, Thor's daughter, who has a belt or girdle that reduces her strength to human norms. I really hadn't considered putting a power mod on Thor, Loki, Balder, or Tyr for their own Super ST, DR, IT:DR, etc. Same with the Olympians, really, such as Ares, Athena, Hades, or Herc, or others that would be built on a similar if not identical racial package (Isis, Seth, Marduk, the Morrigan, etc.). Elder Gods like Gaea, Chthon, and Set probably will have some form of Cosmic, but how they compare with other Cosmic entities like Galactus or folks that use the Power Kirby ... erm, Power Cosmic, like the Surfer and other possible Heralds, is strange.

So... suggestions on how many tiers of Cosmic, and thoughts to who qualifies for which level?

[Otaku]

Thanks for being understanding.

So here is what I am thinking. Step zero is deciding how to resolve real world religious beliefs; whatever real world set of beliefs (if any) you want to be real, you remember to scale everything accordingly. No, I'm not telling you to stat up God for GURPS; but if you were running a campaign where such a being exists, especially if something at least resembling one of the real world religions ends up being largely correct, you'll need this to properly empower his servants, his adversaries, etc.

Okay, for the actual Marvel Universe, if we ignore some of the lesser used characters, select whatever will be the "true Cosmic" (again, for want of a better term) and decide how far above the rest it is meant to function; I am thinking things aren't too extreme in the Marvel Universe, so it would most likely be bestowed upon whomever wields the Infinity Gauntlet, possibly even possessed by the individual Gems. From there, just look for the next lowest level and keep going until you hit mundane humans. Going by memory, it would probably be The Living Tribunal, then probably Eternity and beings like him. Then Celestials and the Watchers. Then finally any "pantheons" (or members of them) that still seem to trump everything else. Not sure where guys like Galactus, beings like Death, things like the Phoenix Force, etc. fit in.

Narrowing it down to Earth, beings with powers that regularly override most everything else (even their fellows) either belong with the bottom of of the previous tier, have traits that explain why they trump their fellows, or maybe occupy their own tier between the two. This is where Odin, Zeus, etc. hang. If it is just a given that Asgardian/Olympian/etc. magic, technology, powers, or whatever else are better than the mundane, to the point where physical laws may be adjusted ("My divine waters can douse any mortal flame!") then it two would need to be part of the Cosmic spectrum.

If on the other hand it is just something about their technology/magic/etc. that makes things react in particular ways, it may be a separate, non-Cosmic kind of modifier. Perhaps even a 0% because it mostly balances out how sometimes they come out on top, sometimes they are equivalents, and sometimes they lose out to something else. For example, let us say (regardless of the reality) that Asgardian magic was more potent than Olympian, but Olympian technology was more reliable than Asgardian. In terms of physiology, the two are equivalents but there are some things that only affect Asgardians and some things that only affect Olympians, then Asgardian and Olympian might also be 0% Power Modifiers. I don't remember and am running out of time to look up whether Agardians have any natural resistance to mundane disease, but if they do you might still have the equivalent of the Asgardian Common Cold that ignores said hypothetical bonuses as opposed to powering through them by being almost impossible for "mortals" to survive.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Places like the Vault exist in this timeline, with power dampeners for those with Super, Mutant, Psionic, and Mutant Psionic, plus pharmacological treatments for those with abilities that have Biological, Chemical, and Passive Biological on them. I'm not sure whether countermeasures for Magical are known or effective.

That said, how does Neutralize and Static work against "wild" abilities compared to those that are part of a Cosmic-powered Power?

"wild" Static/Neutralize cannot affect an ability with a Cosmic power modifier, unless they slap Cosmic on as well (not necessarily as a PM, could be a "wild" modifier too). "Wild" Static/Neutralize affect abilities with non-cosmic power modifiers normally, as if the PM wasnt there.

I think the usual case is that if you use PMs, "wild" Static/Neutralize should not exist.

That said, of the Olympians and Asgardians, I only see Zeus and Odin, and possibly Hades and Hela, as having Cosmic on their stuff. Most of the abilities of the gods are either Magical or "wild". Nyssa's a rarity in that her defensive abilities, at least, are Cosmic; I waffled on whether her lightning should be. Also, note that her lightning does not have Elemental on it; rubber won't be of much use against her. ;)

It might be that all the gods have some level of Cosmic (mere mortals cant cancel their abilities) but only Odin and Zeus have Neutralize/Power Theft/Power Transfer.

From what I understand of the comics, Infinity Stone->Death/Eternity/Tribunal->Celestials/Watchers/Asgard/Olympus/Galactus/Phoenix Force->mere mortal powers/tech, to include Kree, Skrull, etc.

I put Asgard up with the Celestials, because I recall that Thor actually fought the Celestials at some point, and while it cost him Mjolnir, even killed one.

Thanos in his own person is just Asgard/Olympion level as far as I recall. He is a bad ass, sure, but not on a totally different level from Odin or Zeus. Certainly, in the MCU, he doesnt just walk into Asgard and take the cube, as an example... How much any of that applies to your reboot universe, only you could say though.

[Phantasm]

Okay. Here's how things currently look in the Reboot:

Top Tier: Living Tribunal
Second Tier: Eternity, Infinity(?), Death
Third Tier: Master Order, Lord Chaos, Master Hate, Mistress Love, In-Betweener, Phoenix Force, Eon
Fourth Tier: Galactus, Shaper of Worlds, Cosmic Cubes, Watcher, Mephisto, Stranger, Gaea, Set, Chthon
Fifth Tier: Zeus, Odin, Thanos, Silver Surfer, other possible Heralds

Unknown, currently MacGuffins: Infinity Gems (no Gauntlet as yet)

(I'm currently leaving the Celestials out of this, mostly because I'm not sure if I want the Eternals and Deviants involved than any dislike of the Celestials' gene-manipulations.)

The reason I'm putting the Gems in the second tier is because the Tribunal himself put limits on them when he recreated the timeline(s).

Because I'm not giving stats to the top three tiers, I suppose setting this as a two-tier Cosmic deal is viable? Or should I price as a 5-tier deal anyway? Or do people disagree with some of these placements?



Edit: I found a pic of various cosmic entities not too long ago while strafing the web, which I'm kinda-sorta using as a basis. There's a few entities that I know about that aren't on there: Death, Phoenix Force, and Numinus come to mind.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Okay. Here's how things currently look in the Reboot:

Top Tier: Living Tribunal
Second Tier: Eternity, Infinity(?), Death
Third Tier: Master Order, Lord Chaos, Master Hate, Mistress Love, In-Betweener, Phoenix Force, Eon
Fourth Tier: Galactus, Shaper of Worlds, Cosmic Cubes, Watcher, Mephisto, Stranger, Gaea, Set, Chthon
Fifth Tier: Zeus, Odin, Thanos, Silver Surfer, other possible Heralds

Unknown, currently MacGuffins: Infinity Gems (no Gauntlet as yet)

I'd probably make it look more like:
Top Tier: Living Tribunal. Obviously able to muck with everyone else.

Second Tier: Eternity/Infinity, Death/Oblivion, Master Order, Lord Chaos. These are the axis of reality for each of their prospective dimensions. They are peers of each other, though Master Order and Lord Chaos seem to have less sway in this particular dimension than the others, but more in other dimensions.


Third Tier: Master Hate, Mistress Love, In-Betweener, Galactus, Phoenix Force, Eon, Cosmic Cubes. These are servants and children of the Second tier powers. Galactus and In-Between in particular seem to rely on the two higher powers they balance.

Fourth Tier: Mephisto, Gaea, Set, Chthon, Elder God pantheons (Zeus, Odin). More involved in worldly affairs either ruling or trying to acquire power. They generally own a small domain and grant divine favor to followers.

Fifth Tier: Shaper of Worlds, Watcher, Stranger, Children of the pantheons (Thor, Herc), Thanos, Silver Surfer, other possible Heralds. Powerful figures but not sources of investiture. Besides, nearly all of them answer to someone higher on this scale. Watcher to the watcher council, the children to their pantheon leaders, surfer/heralds to Galactus (if he cares). Even the Shaper and Stranger have been called to task for what they were doing by higher cosmic powers.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Because I'm not giving stats to the top three tiers, I suppose setting this as a two-tier Cosmic deal is viable? Or should I price as a 5-tier deal anyway? Or do people disagree with some of these placements?

Even though you are never statting the top three up, they might be involved in various ways, like attacking or empowering others or simply needing to know exactly how outclassed someone is. Since this is set in a Marvel inspired universe, even if the Infinity Gauntlet has been slightly nerfed, it has been able to overpowered the Living Tribunal before, yes? Unless you plan on preventing the Infinity Gauntlet from ever existing, seems like there is a high risk that lower powers might be able to work together to mount a defense against something it might do.

Unless the LT is supposed to be infinitely powerful in and of itself (which it wasn't when it showed up in what I read). You still probably won't ever need to stat them, but knowing exactly how über Cosmic their "effects" rank could come in handy. If it never does, it just means a little point bloat for the most part, and on increasingly obscure characters.

Originally Posted by naloth

I'd probably make it look more like:
Top Tier: Living Tribunal. Obviously able to muck with everyone else.

Second Tier: Eternity/Infinity, Death/Oblivion, Master Order, Lord Chaos. These are the axis of reality for each of their prospective dimensions. They are peers of each other, though Master Order and Lord Chaos seem to have less sway in this particular dimension than the others, but more in other dimensions.


Third Tier: Master Hate, Mistress Love, In-Betweener, Galactus, Phoenix Force, Eon, Cosmic Cubes. These are servants and children of the Second tier powers. Galactus and In-Between in particular seem to rely on the two higher powers they balance.

Fourth Tier: Mephisto, Gaea, Set, Chthon, Elder God pantheons (Zeus, Odin). More involved in worldly affairs either ruling or trying to acquire power. They generally own a small domain and grant divine favor to followers.

Fifth Tier: Shaper of Worlds, Watcher, Stranger, Children of the pantheons (Thor, Herc), Thanos, Silver Surfer, other possible Heralds. Powerful figures but not sources of investiture. Besides, nearly all of them answer to someone higher on this scale. Watcher to the watcher council, the children to their pantheon leaders, surfer/heralds to Galactus (if he cares). Even the Shaper and Stranger have been called to task for what they were doing by higher cosmic powers.

This seems fairly sound, but as is often the case with comics it is difficult to deduce which exceptions apply. For example, we know that heralds can turn on Galactus and for various reasons not be instantly zapped back to nothingness. Silver Surfer wasn't left as a bald nearly human alien but retained his chrome finish and at least some of his powers after he rebelled, right? Thor can take down a Celestial, but only one and given what it cost him, it might be an exception that proves the rule (I know no details of this encounter, so if the story made it clear, my apologies).

Speaking of individuals versus groups, should a distinction be made (as an example) for Uatu the Watcher versus the Watchers (the collective group)? Even things that will never need stats like a character may have effects you'd need to be able to rank on the "cosmic tiers".

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Even though you are never statting the top three up, they might be involved in various ways, like attacking or empowering others or simply needing to know exactly how outclassed someone is.

I didn't approach it from the raw power, but rather how "divine" the power modifier seemed to be. IIRC same levels can't strip each other, but superior levels have the possibility (though it may be hard).

Silver Surfer wasn't left as a bald nearly human alien but retained his chrome finish and at least some of his powers after he rebelled, right?

I'd chalk that up to his mood. Galactus has shown that he can strip heralds of power but for some reason he usually doesn't bother.

Thor can take down a Celestial, but only one and given what it cost him, it might be an exception that proves the rule (I know no details of this encounter, so if the story made it clear, my apologies).

There's two occasions I can think of where he fought a celestial. He only managed to damage the latter one with his new magic celestial slaying axe. For either fight the Celestial didn't really pay any attention to him - Thor attacked while he was being ignored.

In contrast the might of the Eternals couldn't stand up to the a Celestial (head of the host), nor could Odin using the Destroyer, or could he assembled might of Earth pantheons.

I didn't rank Celestials on this chart, but I'd put them square in the middle (rank 3). I also didn't list the Eldars which could be either be forth or fifth.

Speaking of individuals versus groups, should a distinction be made (as an example) for Uatu the Watcher versus the Watchers (the collective group)? Even things that will never need stats like a character may have effects you'd need to be able to rank on the "cosmic tiers".

Hmmm, I wouldn't generally? Cosmic tiers are power modifiers, so it would be odd if the collective group was higher.

Note that I didn't mean to imply raw power. The Shaper can build (or destroy) in entire solar systems in ways Galactus cannot, but on the scale of who's who in galactic importance, Galactus talks directly to Eternity and Death and gets his mojo from being part of the axis of reality.

[Boomerang]

Epic thread, this should be added to the GURPS resources page.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by naloth

Cosmic tiers are power modifiers, so it would be odd if the collective group was higher.

Would it really?

Think about it going the other direction; it isn't because we are adding a bunch of "Gains Cosmic when used by X Watchers at the same time" Modifier to anything. First we are modeling how the reality works; what effects can match or dominate other effects. Then we take that and put it into GURPS terms. "So-and-so is immune to the reality altering effects of this cosmic entity acting on its own, but when it joins with its peers they can affect even So-and-so."

I mean, if that is wrong, my bad.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Would it really?

Think about it going the other direction; it isn't because we are adding a bunch of "Gains Cosmic when used by X Watchers at the same time" Modifier to anything. First we are modeling how the reality works; what effects can match or dominate other effects. Then we take that and put it into GURPS terms. "So-and-so is immune to the reality altering effects of this cosmic entity acting on its own, but when it joins with its peers they can affect even So-and-so."

I mean, if that is wrong, my bad.

No, you're not wrong; this is pretty much how I envision it. It's not who empowers who, but who can affect who, and if those effects are closer to the cosmic or the mundane end of the scale.

The way I see it, the heads of the pantheons, the Shaper, the Stranger, and the Watcher (as his own entry indicates, the existence of the Watchers as a race native to the Reboot Universe is unknown even to Uatu) have effects that are more closely related to the mundane than the cosmic, even if able to converse with cosmic entities as "lesser equals". On the other end of things, beings like Eternity and the Tribunal are almost wholly unaffected by changes on the mundane scale, but always get involved when events of cosmic importance happen. If Eternity was to change the placement of a group of a few hundred galaxies a few billion lightyears from Earth from one sector of space to another, it's highly unlikely the denizens of those galaxies would notice the change.

I'm wary about putting the Infinity Gems working in unison higher than the Living Tribunal, but I could possibly be persuaded in favor of "equal to". The Gems, though, are much less powerful individually.