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Old 08-26-2014, 11:15 AM   #21
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
Enhanced Time Sense almost feels like a highly Limited form of Accelerated Time Rare,
Not really. ETS doesn't give you anything ATR does, at least directly. It does not grant you the ability to offset Time Spent penalties etc.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:27 PM   #22
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

I have never seen a PC take ATR. And I can see exactly why.

When I first got GURPS I read through the basic set and saw ATR and immediately thought: "Oh, this is how you build supernaturally quick creatures like elves from Eregon." So I built a character with ATR and a foe (or two, I can't remember). The other stats were fairly equal. I was quite disapointed with the results. My hoped for combat monster-- wasn't a combat monster.

Yes, it was a rookie mistake: the way to build a supernaturally fast combat monster is to buy up basic speed, DX, move and perhaps add levels of extra attack, maybe with a modifier to denote that I'm attacking twice because that's how fast I move, but it illustrates why so few players take ATR: supernatural speed is usually best handled in other ways.

half of me thinks ATR is overpriced. The other half looks at how often compartmentalized mind is taken and wonders if a ATR minus CM would be the best way to handle a lot of speedsters, and what that is worth.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:36 PM   #23
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Not really. ETS doesn't give you anything ATR does, at least directly. It does not grant you the ability to offset Time Spent penalties etc.
Are we starting with the GURPS rules' crunch or the concepts that spawned the Advantages?

Enhanced Time Sense seems to take one very limited aspect of Accelerated Time Rate; perception (not to be confused with the Attribute) and processing. You can't move any faster (save where your improved perception would allow your normal speed to still react faster than someone else who is "still processing"), but you do get that processing time. The lack of affecting the Concentrate maneuver may boil down to what concerns me about Enhanced Time Sense; it doesn't grant a specific amount of additional processing time.

Of course there is one other disconnect; Enhanced Time Sense automatically puts you ahead of those without Enhanced Time Sense in turn order (when such a thing is relevant). That... kind of contradicts how it isn't supposed to increase your speed; does it matter if I am perceiving and processing faster if my move is 1 and my opponent's move is 20?
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:37 PM   #24
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
When I first got GURPS I read through the basic set and saw ATR and immediately thought: "Oh, this is how you build supernaturally quick creatures like elves from Eregon." So I built a character with ATR and a foe (or two, I can't remember). The other stats were fairly equal. I was quite disapointed with the results. My hoped for combat monster-- wasn't a combat monster.
DFM1's Watcher at the End of Time is pretty scary, and mainly for the ATR.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:40 PM   #25
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Of course there is one other disconnect; Enhanced Time Sense automatically puts you ahead of those without Enhanced Time Sense in turn order (when such a thing is relevant). That... kind of contradicts how it isn't supposed to increase your speed; does it matter if I am perceiving and processing faster if my move is 1 and my opponent's move is 20?
It is supposed to affect reaction time, which is why sequence is based on Basic Speed (and not Move or some other quantity).

On the other hand, isn't this better discussed when we get to ETS?
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:52 PM   #26
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
When I first got GURPS I read through the basic set and saw ATR and immediately thought: "Oh, this is how you build supernaturally quick creatures like elves from Eregon." So I built a character with ATR and a foe (or two, I can't remember). The other stats were fairly equal. I was quite disapointed with the results. My hoped for combat monster-- wasn't a combat monster.

Yes, it was a rookie mistake: the way to build a supernaturally fast combat monster is to buy up basic speed, DX, move and perhaps add levels of extra attack, maybe with a modifier to denote that I'm attacking twice because that's how fast I move, but it illustrates why so few players take ATR: supernatural speed is usually best handled in other ways.
One character with ATR should significantly outperform the same character without. It is substantially better than, for instance, Extra Attack (Multistrike), and Extra Attack is certainly quite advantageous.

ATR 1 is in many respects not as good as being two people, in a fight.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:06 PM   #27
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

It allows all out attack followed by all out defense. That's worth quite a bit.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:13 PM   #28
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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It allows all out attack followed by all out defense. That's worth quite a bit.
Specifically, it's worth getting Telegraphically stabbed in the Vitals by someone who Waited.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:21 PM   #29
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Specifically, it's worth getting Telegraphically stabbed in the Vitals by someone who Waited.
Assuming that anybody remembers that Wait even exists. The Watcher almost inflicted a TPK, until one of the players finally tried this.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:25 PM   #30
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Default Re: [Basic] Advantage of the Week: Altered Time Rate

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I have never seen a PC take ATR. And I can see exactly why.

When I first got GURPS I read through the basic set and saw ATR and immediately thought: "Oh, this is how you build supernaturally quick creatures like elves from Eregon." So I built a character with ATR and a foe (or two, I can't remember). The other stats were fairly equal. I was quite disapointed with the results. My hoped for combat monster-- wasn't a combat monster.

Yes, it was a rookie mistake: the way to build a supernaturally fast combat monster is to buy up basic speed, DX, move and perhaps add levels of extra attack, maybe with a modifier to denote that I'm attacking twice because that's how fast I move, but it illustrates why so few players take ATR: supernatural speed is usually best handled in other ways.

half of me thinks ATR is overpriced. The other half looks at how often compartmentalized mind is taken and wonders if a ATR minus CM would be the best way to handle a lot of speedsters, and what that is worth.
All things being equal, ATR gives an outrageous advantage in combat, but it doesn't give you all the things that most people would assume come with being able to move twice (or more times) as fast as everybody else. If you spend all your points on ATR and nothing into other advantages and skills that make you effective in combat, you won't be a supernaturally fast combat monster. You'll be a supernaturally fast guy who is ineffective in combat twice (or more times) as often. Supernaturally fast combat monsters take a lot of points, but are devastating in combat.

If a player thinks "My punches should do more damage, because my fist moves twice as fast" or "I should be able to get around any defense those slow-pokes put up" or "I should be able to dodge any attack, because those guys move like 3 year-olds compared to me" ATR on its own will seem disappointing. All those effects are provided by other advantages, and if you want a superhuman combat monster, you should take Striking ST, Increased DX (or extra levels in your combat skills), and Enhanced Dodge. (Although using one or more AoA Determined to make a Deceptive Attack, then taking All Out Defense with your last maneuver simulates the second and third reasonably.)

The tactical advantage of being able to safely use AoA, or make a run-around attack using Move and Attack (or AoA if you have the Move to do it) then a regular Attack or All Out Attack to someone's back, or take a Wait as your last maneuver and interrupt your opponent's attack after you've already had yours is worth hefty points for combat effectiveness, and maybe some more just for the 'in your face' fun of it.
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