Grappling with claws and teeth

[jacobmuller]

What I'm looking for, and it's probably somewhere here already, is the bonuses to grappling with Brawling that having sharp claws and/ or teeth might give?
I've been searching for this but so far all I found was a How to Build it thread.
example: cat jumping onto prey and gripping with claws before sinking its teeth in or raking with hind legs.

[Grouchy Chris]

I don't follow your question. Brawling is not a grappling skill, so "grappling with Brawling" isn't a legal action. Unless there's something in MA that I've missed.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Chris

I don't follow your question. Brawling is not a grappling skill, so "grappling with Brawling" isn't a legal action. Unless there's something in MA that I've missed.

I think natural biters can strike with their teeth using Brawling or DX (?). If you can bite and hang on ("worry" as it's called in Martial Arts) you have grappled your opponent with a striking attack.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Grouchy Chris

I don't follow your question. Brawling is not a grappling skill, so "grappling with Brawling" isn't a legal action. Unless there's something in MA that I've missed.

It is, either with a bite, or with a Clinch (the latter requires a Perk).

[Dutch_Wolf]

Some biting rules can be found on Martial Arts p.115, according to that there is no bonus for having sharp teeth except that the damage type changes in a couple of cases.

[Grouchy Chris]

Okay, if you want to take it that way, sure, you can bite and then hold on for a grapple, but the bite is an ordinary Brawling attack that does your normal biting damage. Sharp Teeth just means that you get cutting damage for your bite, and has no effect on the grapple itself. Sharp Teeth doesn't give a bonus to resist attempts to break free or anything like that, as far as I know.

As for Clinch, I don't see that it makes any difference. If you want to bite and then grapple, you don't need Clinch for that. If you have Sharp Claws and want to use Clinch to grapple with Brawling, then you're grappling, not striking, and the claws don't do anything.

[jacobmuller]

Okay, so if I apply the Teeth rules (MA115) to Claws, the critter could roll against its Brawling, applying full location penalties, and choose to hang on and, in effect, Worry but with Claw damage instead of Bite?
It won't have grappled but its victim will count as having been grappled. This allows all the rules in B270-1 to apply?

Would you allow a cat, as a racial skill, the Dual-weapon technique? Off-hand weapon training Perk?

Thank you all for your feedback - preceding and following.

[Gef]

I think I'd at least require a Style Perk to make the claws work like teeth. Off-Hand "Weapon" Training is not normally required for claws, but is mentioned as an option in the "brutal realism" rules, and conversely Dual "Weapon" Attack is not normally allowed, but is mentioned as an option...perfect for an Extra Option perk, I say. -GEF

[lwcamp]

I will note that in real life, cat claws seem to be adapted largely for hooking and holding prey with slashing being rather secondary. Various meat-hook like attacks that are natural to predators (such as cat claws, assassin bug probosci, mantis and stomatopod raptorial appendages, the claws of hawks, falcons, owls, and eagles, and likely the toe-claw of dromeosaurid dinosaurs such as velociraptors) are very good at piercing and holding is such a way as to prevent escapes. Likewise, the bites of many predators can be difficult to escape from, since the teeth puncture and prevent squiring out while the jaws clamp down with considerable power (as I know from painful first hand experiences). I would consider giving these sorts of attacks a penalty to escape, but I'm not sure if there is a RAW way of doing so. Here is a house rule I wrote up some time ago to reflect this
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/Ads-n%27-stuff/Gripper.html

Luke

[jacobmuller]

Would the following be a usable house-rule?

Grasping @ Claws
Claws (Blunt) benefits from Karate, MA57, but other Claws do not. Teeth can be used for a form of grappling (MA115) and the Bite Mastery allows teeth to use Karate. NB also for worn Claws, drop the note [4] from the Sw damage row.
Claws (Sharp or Talons-cutting) may be used to grapple in a similar manner to teeth. The attacker must choose whether he is slashing or grasping with his claws before the attack is made. Slashing is unchanged. Grasping inflicts ½ damage but counts as a grapple for the purposes of Breaking Free, Techniques, etc. Attempts to break free are at a penalty equal to the Shock inflicted by the claw attack; successfully breaking free inflicts full Claw damage. On each subsequent turn in which you choose to maintain your claw grasp, that claw attack automatically hits for ½ Claw damage; if your attack has already penetrated armour, the follow-up attacks may ignore armour. For further options, see B370-1.
Options: Harsh Realism – Strong and Weak Hands, MA124, may apply.
Hind-leg-rake: treat as a Knee Strike, B404, but Cutting damage.
Graspers [1/lvl]
Your hands, mouth or other grasping appendages, are formed such that they grant a bonus to resist Break Free attempts @ +1 per level.