Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-21-2021, 05:33 PM   #31
DeadParrot
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Default Re: Glamor

As long as one keeps in mind the big limitation of Glamor, it doesn't seem that hard to figure out. The big limitation is that the Glamored creature gets none of the abilities of the disguise.

If Lisa the mage in her cloth armor is Glamored to look like Lucy the plate mail wearing knight, an observant person may wonder why Lucy isn't making the normal creaks and clanks that plate mail makes as she walks past. It won't get them past the Glamor but they may well suspect "Something isn't right with Lucy" and react accordingly. The reverse can also cause problems. If a Glamored Lucy walks by, the guards could well pick up on the clanks and creaks coming from Lisa's cloth armor as being not right.

If Bilbo is Glamored to look like Gandalf but forgets about the disguise, he may walk thought a hobbit sized door and have the top two feet of Gandalf appear to move through the solid door frame.

If Samantha the servant is Glamored to look like Sam the Duke, it will still be Samantha's voice coming out of the Duke's mouth. And folks familiar with the Duke may wonder why he smells like his female servant instead of his usual pungent self.

A Glamored Dwarf still won't fit through that 9 inch crack in the wall despite looking like skinny street urchin.
DeadParrot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2021, 07:19 PM   #32
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Glamor

You make a good point that Glamor is easier to see through than I was thinking.

It's also clear that you allow Glamor to include any visual images of clothing, armor and accoutrements.
phiwum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2021, 07:28 PM   #33
Shostak
 
Shostak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
Default Re: Glamor

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadParrot View Post
If Lisa the mage in her cloth armor is Glamored to look like Lucy the plate mail wearing knight, an observant person may wonder why Lucy isn't making the normal creaks and clanks that plate mail makes as she walks past.
I don't think this is quite right. Illusions of people can speak (ITL 138), so it seems reasonable that an illusion of metal armor would clink and clank. It would not, however, offer any protection.
Shostak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2021, 09:00 PM   #34
TippetsTX
 
TippetsTX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: North Texas
Default Re: Glamor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
I don't think this is quite right. Illusions of people can speak (ITL 138), so it seems reasonable that an illusion of metal armor would clink and clank. It would not, however, offer any protection.
I think applying auditory (or any other non-visual) effects to a GLAMOR is a stretch. The text (limited thought it is) only ever refers to outward appearance and no other elements common to standard illusions. To me, this feels like one of those cases where, if not explicitly stated, the spell only does what the spell actually describes.

But as I said previously, I think there's a good argument for a 'greater' GLAMOR spell that has all the bells and whistles.
__________________
“No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style.” -Vladimir Taltos
TippetsTX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2021, 09:50 PM   #35
timm meyers
 
Join Date: May 2020
Default Re: Glamor

"..a special sort of illusion..." Glamour is not shapeshifting, clothes are not ripped apart if you glamor as the Hulk and the same is true in reverse that you do not need to strip nekked and have a pair of oversized ripped purple pants handy to complete the illusion.

You can cast a 2 st illusion and stand behind it but a glamor allows you to cast the illusion around yourself and stand in it. Like an inflatable dinosaur costume at a convention. Your sword/belt/shoes/armor etc. are all hidden by this illusion. If you wish to draw your sword or pick up an axe and wield it the glamor skin is wielding the weapon.

Obviously there are many things that would appear strange when glamored as a wolf/dinosaur/pudding, but since it is a "special sort of illusion" it will not be disbelieved even when odd actions are taken such as swinging a sword around. However any witness will immediately know something is grossly wrong. The visual translation of the action is up to the player and GM to decide, is the wolf swinging a sword in its mouth? the paw? a furry pseudopod?
Just my thoughts.
timm meyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2021, 05:35 AM   #36
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Glamor

Hey, Timm, just two things are unclear to me in your description.

(1) What about impersonating someone? Is Glamor enough to pull it off without a Disguise roll? (I think not. For details, see this post.)

(2) Can you glamor up an figure holding something in its hands different than what you hold, possibly nothing, in yours? (My guess: Perhaps so, but that would cause issues if you then pick something up with your hand. Furthermore, a fictional object would have no effects at all, since Glamor is like illusion in some way but confers no abilities. No free torch, for instance.)

One difference I've chosen is that you can't glamor up something that moves too differently from you. There should be some correlation between your movements and that of your appearance, so no mustard jelly or wolf.

DeadParrot mentioned an issue you didn't touch on, namely whether sound corresponds to your glamored image. If you glamor up armor around your disguise, does it make the right sound? I'm leaning to disagree with DeadParrot's and Tippets's reading of appearance as literally visual, which is plausible given the wording but very significantly limiting to the spell's utility. I'm still not sure about all that.
phiwum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2021, 06:45 AM   #37
Shostak
 
Shostak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
Default Re: Glamor

Quote:
Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
I think applying auditory (or any other non-visual) effects to a GLAMOR is a stretch.
Think of it as mathematical sets: not all Illusions are Glamors, but all Glamors are Illusions. Thus, all Glamors have all of the characteristics of Illusions (the way that all squares have the characteristics of a rectangle), but may have additional ones (like having a greater duration and being more difficult to be seen for what they truly are). If that's true, clothing that is Glamored to look like plate armor will clink for the same reason that a standard Illusion of the same armor will make appropriate sounds.
Shostak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2021, 07:09 AM   #38
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Glamor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Think of it as mathematical sets: not all Illusions are Glamors, but all Glamors are Illusions. Thus, all Glamors have all of the characteristics of Illusions (the way that all squares have the characteristics of a rectangle), but may have additional ones (like having a greater duration and being more difficult to be seen for what they truly are). If that's true, clothing that is Glamored to look like plate armor will clink for the same reason that a standard Illusion of the same armor will make appropriate sounds.
Ah, but Shostak, Glamors definitely don't have all the effects of illusions. An illusion can have the abilities of the real thing unless it's disbelieved. A glamor can't.

So, is making the right sound more like an ability (vision in the dark, say?) or not? Or, to put it differently, was the word "appearance" meant in the literal and limiting sense of purely visual effects?

I tend to agree with you, Shostak, but the differences between Illusion and Glamor weakens your argument.
phiwum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2021, 07:32 AM   #39
Shostak
 
Shostak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
Default Re: Glamor

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
So, is making the right sound more like an ability (vision in the dark, say?) or not? Or, to put it differently, was the word "appearance" meant in the literal and limiting sense of purely visual effects?
If a woman wizard with a high voice uses Glamor to make herself seem as though she is a brawny male, does she still speak with the same feminine voice?
Shostak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2021, 07:53 AM   #40
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Glamor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
If a woman wizard with a high voice uses Glamor to make herself seem as though she is a brawny male, does she still speak with the same feminine voice?
I was just coming here to address that very question.

That really is the rub. I don't think you can change your voice. If you want to do that, then you have to be a Mimic. If we allowed you to change your voice, then Glamor appears to compete with two Talents instead of just Disguise (about which I have already commented).

So, how can I consistently say that Glamor allows you to mimic the sounds of armor but not change one's voice? It's a problem and maybe I'll have to agree with DeadParrot and TippetsTX for that reason. There's a delicate balance between making Glamor too easy to detect and making Glamor too powerful and I'm having trouble seeing how to thread that needle.

Not producing sound effects isn't perhaps all that dreadful. Lack of clanking from metal armor, as DeadParrot suggested, might be a giveaway (perhaps a fairly easy IQ roll), but most disguises won't require much in the way of sound effects. Clothing is clothing, more or less, and few will notice the lack of creaking from leather armor.
phiwum is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.